How do some Finns discriminate?

by , under All categories, Enrique

In countries such as the United States and Brazil the term “race” is used to find out the ethnic diversity of their societies. While it is unclear why Brazil classifies in its census people from different ethnicities, in the United States it is done when drawing up electoral districts.

In order to find out more information on the implementation of the Employment Equity Act, Statistics Canada places minorities into “visible” and “invisible” groups. A visible minority is a “person, other than Aboriginal persons, who are non-Caucasian in race or non-white in color.”

Finland does not use ethnicity nor race to classify different groups but mother tongue.  If we look at the history of this country from the nineteenth century, the role of language has played, and continues to play, in identifying Finns.

Since there were few “visible” immigrants in the nineteenth century in this country, language must have played an important role in helping to figure out from which group the person was.

This brings forth an interesting question: Do some Finns generally discriminate due to mother tongue or skin color – or is it a double whammy? When some employers claim that immigrants “cannot speak Finnish well enough,” are they using language  in the same was as color or ethnicity would be used in the United States to discriminate?

Or is language used to discriminate against “invisible”  and language+ethnicity for “visible” immigrants?

  1. hannu

    No katotaha ny osaakkkonä suomee, ei se ole aiva selvää että joku neekeri osais tarpeeks ko tarvii osata kaikkie suomee oli se sitte savosta tahi lapista. On toki suomessa syntyneitä neekereitä jokka tosiaan osaa mutta ne on asia erikseen. Ja siks ei niit eriksee tilastoiakkaa.
    osaakkonä tarpeheksi suomee eli murtehia tuli vastaan kuka vaan?
    Mulleha o vaikiaa ko tulee savolaine tahi raumalaine vastaha, ymmärrän mutta hankalaa on ja oon suomalaine.
    Mun murre o ollu mulle ja muille helppo ko kaik o sanonehet ett se o “pehmee ja ymmärrettävä”.
    Kukaha ei pysty suuttumaha mulle ko niille lapiksi raataan, ymmärtävät mun kielen ja eivät voi sen pehmeyen takia suuttua. Onha lapin murtehesta murhehetki ollu ko “lapin lisästä” o syytetty mutta äkkiäkö son pois menny.
    Puhukkonä suomee? Ko mä laulan suomeksi niin ymmärräkkönä? Ko mä puhun ni ymmärräkkönä?
    Kirjakieltähä en ala puhumaha!

  2. Tony Garcia

    “Do some Finns generally discriminate due to mother tongue or skin color”

    Nop they don’t. They discriminate due attitude.

    “When some employers claim that immigrants “cannot speak Finnish well enough,” are they using language in the same was as color or ethnicity would be used in the United States to discriminate?”

    Nop they are not… When a employer says “cannot speak Finnish well enough,” he/she means “cannot speak Finnish well enough to do the job you are applying.”

    “Or is language used to discriminate against “invisible” and language+ethnicity for “visible” immigrants?”

    I, as a visible (language+ethnicity) immigrant who lived in Finland for many years can say that discrimination in Finnish workplace only exists in very rare cases, if exists at all. This is a cheep excuse to “explain” the failure of those who are falling everywhere they go.

  3. willie

    In 1925, the first Islamic congregation (Finlandiya Islam Cemaati = Finnish Islamic Congregation) was founded. Finland was thus the first Western European country to officially recognise an Islamic congregation.

    The Tatars are fully integrated into Finnish society and they are actively engaged in Finnish economic and cultural life in a wide array of professions that includes civil servants, entrepreneurs, doctors, lawyers, engineers and teachers.

    Why am I bringing up the Tatars?

    Here is a group that has assimilated yet managed to keep some of their own cultural traditions. How could this be possible in the so-called “racist Finland”? I’ll tell you how: They learned Finnish and adapted to the culture. Even though there are only about 800 of them they have managed to keep an ethnic identity while participating in Finnish society.

    Heres the deal- if you are a foreigner in Finland, you are just that- a foreigner in Finland. Of course you are going to be different than the Finns. Why? Because you are not Finnish. How can you as a foreigner in Finland gain acceptance among Finns? Learn how things are done here and put what you have learned into everyday use.

    Otherwise you are just wasting space.

    Finns as a whole are racist or xenophobic. They do however have a right to expect that immigrants should follow and respect Finnish rules and customs. Its like when you have a guest in your home. Perhaps at his home it is customary to piss in the sink. That does not mean that he has the right to piss in yours.

    • Enrique

      Willie, I never mentioned all Finns are racist. However, a sign of a healthy society is how much it can debate issues. Immigrants do not have a voice in Finland because of their underwhelming size. When they have a bigger say and have the opportunity to be a part of this society through employment, we will have gone a long way from where we are now.
      I sure hope it won’t be a problem, but the jury is still out because there are too immigrants to begin with. The few that live here have caused quite a security/social debate.

  4. willie

    -“Kirjakieltähä en ala puhumaha!”

    Hieno murre Hannu. Nice dialect Hannu. And nobody speaks “kirjakieli”. In fact some scholars of Finnish (of which there are plenty in the world) are of the opinion that Finnish as spoken by immigrants is in fact a new dialect.

  5. hannu

    New finns do speak odd finnish, it could be new dialect indeed, My finnish is near of original and pure finnish and i wouldnt change it. You will find angry man protecting his language 🙂
    Mennähä laon taakse kattomaha miten on! (not that i would like to fight with you, you are nice)

  6. hannu

    Ah immigrants dont have a voice… We have one immigrant in parliament, many in local areas… We have many immigrants in TV and radio. Arent they “your voice”?
    For example Neil Hardwick was to me “oddly named finn”. Is he your voice? Arman Alizad is clear foreigner and he has been in TV, is he your voice? Lola Odusoga is a finn but you want to see her as foreigner, is she your voice?

  7. hannu

    Hedemai said well “travel and you will see how finnish independence is great”
    “small country what wanted and got their independence”
    Is she your voice? She also said your own attitude is important. Is she?

    Was Kirka (Kirill) Babitzin your voice? He was child of emigrants and as far i can see celebrated as finnish musician.

    Is head of military intelligence your voice, he has russian name.

    Is my friend Nadja who is estonian-russian and has 3 totally finnish childs and is in local goverment your voice?

    What about our Hussam who is from palestine, he moved here in 87 because of love and loves finland. He integrated and was sometimes in local goverment. Is he your voice?

    Is Ville (willie) who writes in this blog somehow left out of ways to influence because he is american(canada, uk or whatever. I dont honestly remember or care)?

    Who is your voice? what you want?

  8. Tony Garcia

    Enrique I can see you are really interested in find out the real reason behind unemployment rates for foreigners in Finland.

    So let me give you something for your research.

    I’ve been living in Finland for 5 years, for the last 3 years I’ve been away but keeping very close contact. So…

    1. I have NEVER suffer ANY work related discrimination in there.

    2. All my foreigners friends, and I do know many, have NEVER suffer ANY work related discrimination.

    However…

    1. I DID see a muslin playing the race card in my work.

    2. I DID heard a Somali pledging to teach his children to hate Finland.

    3.I DID heard 3 Africans say how much they wish to meet a Finn on a dark road.

    Furthermore, everything I’m saying here I do on the records, not behind an alias or anonymity. I could even, if necessary, say it in a court of law.

    I hope this help in your research, and you can find the real reasons why some groups have disproportional unemployment rates in Finland.

    • Enrique

      Hi Tony, I am happy that you have not suffered such discrimination. I think the main reason is to find the causes and work on that. Probably your situation has a lot to do with your profession.

  9. Tony Garcia

    “Immigrants do not have a voice in Finland because of their underwhelming size. When they have a bigger say…”

    Voice to say what? I’m a immigrant and I don’t need any voice to speak on my behalf. Do you? To say what?

    That’s exactly when the problem starts, when we need special things to function.

    Do you know who I want to speak on my behalf? The Finnish parliament. Do you know what I need for my protection? The Finnish police and court of law. Nothing else.

    As I said before I’ve been nothing but a member of Finnish society, just like Hannu or Tiwaz. Whoever speaks on their behalf also speaks on my. I want for me, and my family, the very same policies that are created for them, nothing different.

    Sorry but if you need/want something different than that, you are, in fact, the problem…

    • Enrique

      –Voice to say what? I’m a immigrant and I don’t need any voice to speak on my behalf. Do you? To say what?

      A voice to take part and influence the society he lives in. My vies of immigration is that people can belong to other societies as guaranteed in our Constitution and Equality Act. It is not the old route (assimilation) where the right to speak takes many generations if that.

  10. Tony Garcia

    Just to complement…

    As an immigrant I’m sick and tired of immigrants who can’t stop whining about how much more we need, and keep complaining about how everything is so unfair.

    Dear Finns we are not all like this…

    • Enrique

      –Dear Finns we are not all like this…

      Tony, the reason why our societies in South America are messed up is because their is social inequality. Finland’s success hinges on the opposite but this only involves the Finns and to a less extent the foreigners. Education teaches you judgment and to be critical.

  11. Tony Garcia

    “I think the main reason is to find the causes and work on that”

    It’s very simple, apply for a job with you are capable of doing, if you are the most qualified, you’ll get it.

  12. Tony Garcia

    “My vies of immigration is that people can belong to other societies…”

    We know, and there is where the problems start.

    Once you asked me how we create community cohesion, well we can start by not dividing the community. Sometime ago you also spoke against having “us” and “then” in the society, well…

    There are, clearly, 2 groups of immigrants, those who believe we should be only one society, and those who believe we should be many.

    I have already challenged your before, you should check with group is more successful…

    • Enrique

      –There are, clearly, 2 groups of immigrants, those who believe we should be only one society, and those who believe we should be many.

      But we live in a society were there is diversity and the law defends this. I don’t have an issue with this – do you?

  13. Tony Garcia

    “Education teaches you judgment and to be critical.”

    Quite right, but this is only valid when the guns are pointed to Finns.

    Halla-aho knows this very well…

  14. Tony Garcia

    And talking about Halla-Aho he asked a very interesting question…

    “Miksi krusifiksien kieltäminen turvaa uskonnonvapauden ja ihmisoikeudet mutta minareettien kieltäminen rikkoo niitä?”

    Anyone?

    • Enrique

      –Anyone?

      Halla-Aho is a linguist and should have stayed in those lines of investigations. In my opinion, he is a “Muslim-basher” at the best. Sorry, but I couldn’t get excited about Alfred Rosenberg either. He was an architect who turned into an “expert” on race ideology during the Nazi regime.

  15. Tony Garcia

    “Halla-Aho is a linguist and should have stayed in those lines of investigations”

    Quite right, I just thought that…

    “Education teaches you judgment and to be critical.”

    But I guess I was wrong.

  16. Tony Garcia

    “But we live in a society were there is diversity and the law defends this. I don’t have an issue with this – do you?”

    Just when diversity brings practices that goes against our laws. Otherwise I’m OK.

    I think you can choose any path you want, but don’t complain about the results.

  17. Tony Garcia

    BTW, thanks for showing us that when we don’t have arguments against what the person is saying we should attaching him personally.

    • Enrique

      –Whats your education?

      In first place I don’t go around acting as a “god” on immigrant affairs. I offer my humble opinion backed by my education in the social sciences (anthropology/sociology), 25 years experience in journalism writing for dailies such as the Financial Times, and my life, which has given me a unique perspective (I believe) in immigrant affairs through experience.

  18. Tiwaz

    -“A voice to take part and influence the society he lives in. My vies of immigration is that people can belong to other societies as guaranteed in our Constitution and Equality Act. It is not the old route (assimilation) where the right to speak takes many generations if that.”

    Are immigrants denied right to vote in Finland? No, they just have to get citizenship and it is fine. (which is how it should be, you should NOT be entitled to have voice on issues of nation without citizenship)

    Are immigrants denied right to become parliamentary members etc? Yes.

    So where is the “need for influence” you cry for?

    Immigrants have all the rights they deserve. When they are citizens, they can vote or be voted just like every native Finn.

    Issue you try to demand, but have no courage to admit, is that you want immigrants to be MORE equal than rest.

    Today immigrants have as much voice as their voting power permits. That is called DEMOCRACY. If immigrants are extremely few, their social impact is extremely small. If we start granting them extra “votes” like you demand, we are essentially fucking up idea of democracy.

    Democracy in Finland is “One man, one vote.” That is why it works.

    You want “One Finn, one vote. One immigrant, ten votes” system.

    Do you honestly think it would be improvement?

    As for belonging to society. You belong to society when you show that you respect and obey it’s ways and principles.

    If you want to live as if you were in Somalian society, you cannot expect to be part of Finnish society. You have to choose what society you want to be part of.

    Alternative is to have little pockets of crime filled ethnic ghettoes like in USA. It is route to failure. It is route to divided society which just looks for opportunity to turn against itself.

    -“But we live in a society were there is diversity and the law defends this. I don’t have an issue with this – do you?”

    We live in society where one man has one vote. You clearly have issues with this. I do not.

    As for diversity. You are trying to twist the meaning of the law. Yes, it states you have various rights. But it does not mean you have right to trample on native rights.

    We natives have right NOT to hire guy who would be counterproductive to our work community by demanding special treatment. Or by refusing to speak local language. Or by refusing to accept and adjust to local cultural norms. Instead demanding that natives must adjust to his norms.

    Employer in Finland has right not to hire a guy who comes across as rude asshole, even if that behavior was accepted or encouraged in that assholes native surroundings.

    You Enrique, should accept that immigrants have same requirements as Finns in this society. There is no free lunch for immigrants.

    • Enrique

      –You Enrique, should accept that immigrants have same requirements as Finns in this society. There is no free lunch for immigrants.

      I agree. If we treated immigrants the same way we treat each other, maybe then things would really change. About free lunches… I don’t think there are any in life. Even being on welfare makes you give up something – like your self-esteem.

  19. Tony Garcia

    Now we get in a point that minorities can even make open threats without been challenged. Thinks here in Ireland are getting very scaring…

    Ian O’Doherty knows that well…

    “Oh, now we’re really scared…

    Okay, maybe it’s time for ISpy to withdraw from public debate and keep our filthy, racist, bigoted mouth shut.

    That would be the position of something called the Muslim Public Affairs Committee of Ireland, which doesn’t like people pointing out the numerous moral deficiencies inherent in Muslim culture.
    And our Irish-based Islamists have finally had enough.

    In fact, they have an amusing website which explains why we need to convert to Islam, what Ireland will be like under Shariah law, that kind of thing. They’ve even brought me into it: “Take a look at the hate of Ian O’Doherty and Kevin Myers of the Indo and their vocal hatred of Islam and Muslims.

    “It’s time to stand up and be counted… We’ll say this again, if the Government and others are unwilling or unable to protect Muslims, then the responsibility of protecting our own is incumbent upon us and WE WILL NOT (emphasis theirs) shirk our responsibility — we cannot be blamed for defending ourselves . . . fight those who fight you.”

    Fair enough, lads.

    Well, if you fancy making thinly veiled threats against journalists exercising their right to free speech, here’s a handy hint — this column is based in Talbot Street, Dublin 1.

    Bring your mates too… “

  20. Tony Garcia

    But once…

    “…society’s problems are not fixed by behaving correctly.”

    I think make a threat, as long as it’s made by minorities, it’s OK then.

  21. hannu

    So you are uneducated and dont have any real asset to tell about immigration and you still see you can say Doctor cant talk about it… Go in yourself.

    • Enrique

      —So you are uneducated and dont have any real asset to tell about immigration and you still see you can say Doctor cant talk about it… Go in yourself.

      He has a PhD in LINGUISTICS NOT social sciences. Just because he has a PhD doesn’t mean he is god. In my opinion, his opinions are racist, which explains why he is being sued. And PLEASE don’t give me this “freedom of speech” argument because, if possible, he would be the first to do away with our constitution and laws that promote equality.

  22. hannu

    PhD means he knows how to examine stuff, you dont know it and youre ignorant about facts. He has been living abroad and seen foreigners.
    Your opinions are bullshit if you cant fight against what he says, can you?
    And you dont promote equality, you promote apartheid.

  23. hannu

    If you havent seen freedom of speech is because you can shoot down what other says, can you?
    If you cant then is it truth?
    Limiting freedom of speech, be it offending or what you dont like, is what USSR did to get their “multicultural world”.

  24. Tony Garcia

    “He has a PhD in LINGUISTICS NOT social sciences”

    And so what? I’m an engineer, does that make your opinion better than ours? And who called him God? Just you. What for?

    “he would be the first to do away with our constitution and laws that promote equality.”

    How do you know that? Again you accuse someone without have any prove. As a social scientist with 25 years experience in journalism you should know that this is a crime, but so what? He’s Finn, so you can bash him as much as you want. That explain why you are not being sued.

    You insisting in attach him personally rather than his ideas just show how much substance your ideas lacks.

    • Enrique

      –How do you know that?

      It’s the same jargon of the extreme nationalist right that claims to promote civil liberties but are the first to put it on ice. There are a lot of examples in history. Check out McCarthyism in the United States and others. In first place, our Constitution and laws APPROVE and ENCOURAGE diversity. Diversity does not mean that we adapt to one culture but accept a multitude of cultures in our society. Diversity means sharing public space NOT running home and practicing one’s culture behind closed doors.
      Perussuomalaiset like many of these nationalist parties like the BNP are, in my opinion, a great threat to society. Halla-aho is in court for racial incitement under the law. He will be tried fairly and he will be able to defend himself. But please do not give me this double-standards or freedom of speech argument.

    • Enrique

      –And so what? I’m an engineer, does that make your opinion better than ours?

      Nobody is saying that anyone’s opinion is better than the other one. Just like if I were to start messing around with IT communications equipment, I would get in trouble. In the same way, I think it is healthy to read up on social thinkers and understand something about society before you start a “social engineering job.” Alfred Rosenberg is a good example. He was an architect but became Hitler’s social thinker on eugenics. You can still read his book, the Myth of the Twentieth Century, in the internet. Tragic arguments that led to mass murder on a grand scale. One should be very careful about working implementing amateur “social engineering” because it can lead to a huge fiasco. Fortunately we have learned something from WW2.

  25. hannu

    “Halla-aho is in court for racial incitement under the law.”

    Check your facts, he wasnt quilty.
    And your diversity… When i can move in your apartment?

    And now answer our questions.

  26. Tiwaz

    -“Check out the article in Helsingin Sanomat in English to see that he is being charged for racial incitement.”

    As Hannu here is saying, he was found not guilty on that.

    You acting as if he was guilty and claiming he is racist could be viable grounds for suing YOU as per Rikoslaki, 24 luku, §9.

    -“In first place, our Constitution and laws APPROVE and ENCOURAGE diversity. ”

    First of all, could you point out where there is any encouragement. Everyone has right to practice their culture, but there is no encouragement of it. You are free to do many stupid things according to constitution, none of which can be considered smart to do. Say, eating shit.

    Nowhere in those laws it is told that immigrants can expect to be hired despite not fulfilling requirements set by employer to their employee. That is your own imagination.

    Also, nowhere it states that Finns may not judge foreigners according to our cultural values in our native land.

    We have right to refuse to hire immigrant who does not present himself in way that is acceptable to employer.
    We have right to be offended by bad behavior of foreigners, even if it was ok in their culture.
    We have right to expect Finland to be Finland.

    If we wanted this to be USA, we Finns would have changed our country to fit that model long time ago. We do not want to. So if you want things to be like they are in USA, Enrique, I recommend you move back there.

    -“offer my humble opinion backed by my education in the social sciences (anthropology/sociology)”

    Was this your major subject? Would you consider yourself to be more qualified to speak of multiculturalism than Howard D. Putnam who is professor of public policy in Harvard, visiting professor in University of Manchester and variety of other merits under his belt.

    As for starting to throw around mud regarding education of people… I have noticed that you base your accusations on things which appear poorly studied. This does not surprise me, because you say you are journalist. It is sad reality that in journalism truth is victim to hunt for sensation.

    It is not once or twice that people complain how their statements are purposefully removed from their context to make them more “radical”. And I see you do the same thing. You in my view cherry pick issues and statements to avoid telling the whole truth, instead focusing on one aspect you want to present.

    For example crusade against racist Finns refusing to hire foreigners. Never, not once, have you presented evidence that reason why immigrants are unemployed is because Finns are racist instead of them not having skills to do anything but the most menial and simple of jobs. Which tend to require Finnish since at so low level your immediate superior is unlikely to be highly educated either.

    This point is further hammered in by you only stating average unemployment of immigrants, which is around 20-30%, ignoring that groups with least education and worst integration and adjustment to society are drawing it up with their far higher unemployment levels.

    While groups who adjust to Finnish society and/or actually have useful skills are very close or even below of Finnish unemployment level as pointed out by Tony repeatedly.

    So yes, I would put more weight to what Halla-Aho has to say when he puts statistics and other proof to support his claims into table than your views where there is no statistics or sources. Or bad use of them.

    • Enrique

      –First of all, could you point out where there is any encouragement they do approve of diversity.

      Well, I may have been pushing it by stating “encouraging” but there is special mention on gender equality, which is mentioned in article 6:

      Section 6 – Equality
      Everyone is equal before the law.
      No one shall, without an acceptable reason, be treated differently from other persons on the ground of sex, age,
      origin, language, religion, conviction, opinion, health, disability or other reason that concerns his or her person.
      Children shall be treated equally and as individuals and they shall be allowed to influence matters pertaining to
      themselves to a degree corresponding to their level of development.
      Equality of the sexes is promoted in societal activity and working life, especially in the determination of pay and
      the other terms of employment, as provided in more detail by an Act.

    • Enrique

      –For example crusade against racist Finns refusing to hire foreigners. Never, not once, have you presented evidence that reason why immigrants are unemployed is because Finns are racist instead of them not having skills to do anything but the most menial and simple of jobs.

      When have I said this? There is a problem in Finland because of the huge difference in immigrant and unemployment nationally. And please stop putting words in my mouth. With your type of thinking I am sure we will create a strong community. You must be the personnel manager for your company.

  27. Tony Garcia

    Let me get to your points…

    1. Social Engineering job.
    This proves, once and for all, that you have no idea, whatsoever, what he’s talking about. It also explain why you can’t fight his ideas and need to attack him personally. You are the one engaged in social engendering, you are the one who want things to change. Not him, I or many here, we just want Finland to stay the way it always was.

    Yes, I agree with you social engineering, armature or professional alike, does led to fiascos. UK is a great example. So let’s leave things the way they are. Shall we?

    2. Racial incitement.
    Hatred laws have been used to promote political correctness and suffocate immigration debate. That’s why they have been enforced in one way only. You blog is perfect example of this. You have been accusing people, political parties, companies and the whole Finnish system without providing a single piece of evidence, and yet here you are. A failed Somali just need couple of your posts to “understand” why he/she had failed and start hating this country and its people.

    I’m looking forward to see what accusation/attach you’ll do in your next post. What we already know is with direction the bullets will go.

    In my opinion I think his charges were politically motivated to take him from the EU elections, however, my sense of responsibility urge me to make very clear that I have NO proof of that.

    3. Double-standards.
    I’m very happy no to give you this as soon as you stop using it. Deal?

    • Enrique

      Tony, even though I disagree strongly with some of your points, I can live with them. However, when a person starts using eugenics to describe the behavior of a group, that leaves a lot to be desired. Whatever the laws may be or how we want our societies to look like, it all boils down to one matter: diversity and accepting it. Those that are Jihadists or those that are hellbent on ultra nationalism are, in my opinion, from the same place: molding society to fit their agenda.
      Political correctness is awkward but what would you say about political incorrectness? Which of these two are preferable.
      It´s funny that you think that a so-called unemployed Somali will find reason to hate Finland by reading a few of my posts. I hope that person gets so fired up that he does something with his life and does not accept his situation. Giving into hatred is like accepting the verdict of your enemies.
      Tony, you are too much. Waiting for the direction of my bullets?… These are words and thoughts – not bullets.
      In Argentina during the dictatorship (1976-83), the Buenos Aires Herald had a tough line on the junta. They would write critical editorials and then positive ones on the economic policies of the regime. It was a bit like the good-cop-bad-cop interrogation technique. Should I follow the same editorial policy?

  28. Tony Garcia

    “We have right to refuse to hire immigrant who does not present himself in way that is acceptable to employer.”

    Sorry Twiaz but I have to make a little correction.

    The Finnish government hasn’t flushed the country down the loo, as it did NuLabour, so they didn’t add positive discrimination into the Finnish law.

    That been said it’s not your RIGHT but your DUTY as a law binding person to give a f***g kick in the immigrant bloody arse if he/she doesn’t qualify for the job he/she’s applying for. And qualification is not only skills, it also includes behavior, attitude, reliability, etc.

  29. Tony Garcia

    First you are not the only one here who lived under dictatorship.

    One thing I have been very clear here, I defend your right to write whatever you want without hassle, and I only attach your ideas, in any moment I questioned you as person or professional, however you don’t do the same.

    You say… “Education teaches you judgment and to be critical.”, but that should be for everyone, not only for social thinkers.
    He asked a very simple question “Why banning crosses is right but minarets is wrong?” and look how far you went attaching him but yet didn’t touch the question.

    I don’t understand why it’s so difficult for you to get it. If he thinks that all Brazilians are scumbags drug dealers I want him to write it in bold letters. I want him to keep writing it as long as he think this is true. And I want to hear what others have to say about it. If I’m not a drug dealer it gives me the chance to prove it. I’m not afraid of anyone accusing me of anything.

    Why is Islam so afraid? Can’t they defend their position in a open debate?

    Respect is earned not conquered.

    Every day, during 5 years, I walked into my office and I always could look every single work mate in the eye. Do you know why? Because all of them knew they could tell me anything they want. I knew what they thought about me. With time, no much in fact, I earned their respect. This is a nice felling my friend.

    The truth doesn’t fear politically incorrectness, neither do I, why do you? But politically correctness does kill the truth.

    His blog is not different than yours. It’s just a place when you and him can write publicly your ideas. And both of you should be allowed to do so without hassle. I read both blogs in the same way, some ideas I agree some I don’t.

  30. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, you are too much. Waiting for the direction of my bullets?… These are words and thoughts – not bullets.”

    Sorry I didn’t try to be offensive with this. Maybe I should have used a better expression.

  31. Tony Garcia

    And just to prove how right your are about social engineering (I think the right term is reengineering).

    This is what happen when a group try to change the make-up of any country.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036833/Over-half-young-knife-suspects-black-Scotland-Yard-figures-reveal.html

    “Black youths are suspected of more than half of knife crime among children in the capital, according to confidential Scotland Yard figures.”

    “Yet in the overwhelming majority of reported cases of knife crime involving young people, the victims are white.”

    Talking about racism…

    But, let me guess…

    Blacks are attacking whites not because they are racist but because the whites are, so in the end it’s all whites fault. Did I get it right this time?

  32. Tony Garcia

    It’s also funny why someone will find reason to hate muslins just because some of us believe an underage child should not be allowed to get married.

    You are very right again…

    “Giving into hatred is like accepting the verdict of your enemies.”

    Another good example why our laws have been perverted and distorted to suppress immigration critics.

    “it all boils down to one matter: diversity and accepting it”

    I see in a different way, I think the problems starts when diversity is undemocratically imposed.

    You may think diversity is good, many others may also think so, however in a democracy the majority should decide if they want it or not.

  33. hannu

    “However, when a person starts using eugenics to describe the behavior of a group, that leaves a lot to be desired. ”

    Who does that?

    • Enrique

      –Who does that?

      Here is an example: “Ohikulkijoiden ryöstely ja verovaroilla loisiminen on somalien kansallinen, ehkä suorastaan geneettinen erityispiirre.”

  34. DeTant Blomhat

    The problem in Filand is that we do not have jobs. The reason we don’t have jobs is the nordic welfare society. If we scrapped the welfare society and became like Estonia if we want a close example where the minimum wage was it now 285 euros a month and no welfare and no employer obligations there wouldn’t be a problem employing anyone off the street to do menial tasks.

    Unfortunately the costs to create a job are quite high. So lets say some guy wants to be a journalist, if he can’t write he won’t be hired because they cannot afford to have anyone proofreading him. Just as an example.

  35. hannu

    “Here is an example: “Ohikulkijoiden ryöstely ja verovaroilla loisiminen on somalien kansallinen, ehkä suorastaan geneettinen erityispiirre.””

    Now read rest of text.

  36. hannu

    For nonfinns there reads “robbing bystanders and leeching in social wellfare is somalis national, if not genetical trait”. That was answer to finnish magazise who said “Beating wifes and being drunk is finnish national or even genetical trait”.
    It was OK to tell finns are like that because “he didnt claim its a fact” so Halla-aho did change it and he didnt claim it as fact. Sued for that but wasnt quilty.
    You see irony when you can claim finns are drunken wifebeaters and nothing?
    You can read whole text in his blog and in english http://tundratabloid.blogspot.com/2009/03/finland-free-speech-slammed-in-helsinki.html

    He got sentence about “Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile and islam revers pedophilia as a religion. Islam is a religion of pedophilia. Pedophilia is Allah’s will.”

    All this in his writings are in “few baits to mika illmann (state prosecutor)” “muutama täky illmannin mikalle”

    • Enrique

      Hannu, by suggesting that it was a genetic trait he pointed out that Somalis (and I guess Africans as well) are all welfare bums. It is as stupid as stating that genetically “Finns are drunkards and wife-beaters.”
      It’s pretty disgraceful for a person to get a sentence for “defamation of a religion.”
      You have to look at things in context and there must be a certain amount of relativism if it does not infringe on our laws. You cannot go around seeing and interpreting the world through your eyes because you are going to get in a lot of problems.

  37. Tony Garcia

    Well… I think Chehab explained this very well, didn’t he?

    The problem is not with Islam ideology but with our outdated laws wrongly forbidding an underage to get married.

    We just need to finally advance to the 21st century, modernise our laws and we will be happily ever after… Won’t we?

    • Enrique

      –The problem is not with Islam ideology but with our outdated laws wrongly forbidding an underage to get married.

      Tony, why do you focus on this problem all the time? If I had a daughter and she wanted to get married as a minor, she would have to get her parents’ opinion. There are a lot of teenagers that have children, some are married to adults – what about Latin American culture? I have always been amazed how second cousins get married (incest), how older men marry young women, even minors…
      I get the feeling that if I were you living in a society full of hate, they would pick on every little thing that is against their culture. By fair, Tony.

  38. hannu

    “Hannu, by suggesting that it was a genetic trait he pointed out that Somalis (and I guess Africans as well) are all welfare bums. It is as stupid as stating that genetically “Finns are drunkards and wife-beaters.””

    Yes it is and for only one you get sued, telling about double standars?
    He said that because it was ok to say finns are drunk wifebeaters its then OK to say somalis are wellfare bums. i can assure you he dont think its genetic.
    And for your safety, dont compare other africans to somalis.

    • Enrique

      –And for your safety, dont compare other africans to somalis.

      Why not? I think he suggests that their is a genetic angle to it.

  39. hannu

    “Why not? I think he suggests that their is a genetic angle to it.”

    Who suggest? and you obviously dont know africans.
    And i still want you answer who “a person starts using eugenics to describe the behavior of a group”, you failed once but can you prove it now?

  40. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, why do you focus on this problem all the time?”

    Sorry but I’m confused now. Isn’t this what we are talking about? Halla-aho charges?

    • Enrique

      –Sorry but I’m confused now. Isn’t this what we are talking about? Halla-aho charges?

      Tony, you bring up the same issues and it sounds there is no other choice but some kind of “race war” against Muslims. Am I wrong? Haven’t you met any Muslims and become their friends? I would guess so from a person with a background as yours.

  41. Tony Garcia

    It’s clear that you don’t read what I write as much as you don’t what Halla-aho does, but yet, for you, we are always wrong.

    I only pick on Muslins when they demand that our laws should be changed to accommodate their cultural background.

    I also pick on those non-Muslims who insist, in name of community cohesion, that we should close our eyes to what they are doing.

    Amazingly you have been fiercely fighting for our laws and constitution but yet criticize me when I try to keep it and protect them when they try to change it.

    I thought we had a deal about double-standards…

  42. Tony Garcia

    Thanks Enrique for stop personal attacks and bring the discussion to what he said, making this debate more constructive.

    I agree with you in this one (yes I read what you write and for me you are not always wrong by default).

    IMHO use race, or eugenics as you say, to explain human behaviour is rubbish. I know 2 black Americans, both very competent and successful engineers working for Nokia in Tampere. Enrique you should hear their opinion about multiculturalism and blacks playing the race card.

    Somalis are trouble wherever they go (Finland, UK, Demark, Sweden, US, Canada) not because their genetic, but because lack of professional skills (at least nothing useful here), lack of basic education and insistence in hold on to values incompatible with a free western society.

    So all of this plus people telling them that their failure it’s not their fault but our racism, and there you go… a receipt for disaster.

    However I disagree with him on this, I still agree with basically all he says about immigration and how it should be handled.

  43. willie

    “Finns as a whole are racist or xenophobic. They do however have a right to expect that immigrants should follow and respect Finnish rules and customs. Its like when you have a guest in your home. Perhaps at his home it is customary to piss in the sink. That does not mean that he has the right to piss in yours.”

    Whoops. That should have read “as a whole are not racist or xenophobic.” Kind of changes the direction of my point.

    “Race war against muslims… HOW THAT IS POSSIBLE?
    I have also race war against vegetarians!”
    -Nice point Hannu. Way to keep folks on their toes around here. I spend my spare time as a missionary trying to convert vegetarians to the true omnivorous faith. 😉

  44. hannu

    “Way to keep folks on their toes around here. I spend my spare time as a missionary trying to convert vegetarians to the true omnivorous faith. ;)”

    Try this 😀

  45. Tiwaz

    -“When have I said this?”

    Repeatedly. You always place blame on foreigner unemployment on anything but immigrants themselves.
    You speak how Finns discriminate, how Finns this how Finns that.

    You NEVER in the history of this blog as far as I have read it, said that immigrants are stupid when they do not grasp that they need to LEARN USEFUL SKILLS before trying to get employed.

    -“There is a problem in Finland because of the huge difference in immigrant and unemployment nationally. ”

    And you say it is because of Finns. Fault is not of Finns, fault is in immigrants refusing to learn to live and work in Finland.

    Who is to blame when guy who can’t read or write or do anything but herd goats is found unemployable in society which prides itself in 100% literacy and extremely high level of education?

    Should Finland lower it’s standards so that people who come from whatever shithole world has to offer can get employed without needing to whip themselves to learn new things, LOTS of new things?

    -“And please stop putting words in my mouth.”

    Then could you point out where you blame anything or anyone else but Finland and Finns about unemployment of immigrants?

    -“With your type of thinking I am sure we will create a strong community. You must be the personnel manager for your company.”

    Yes, with my time of thinking Finland grew from crap little shithole where agrarian lifestyle was the norm into wealthy 1st world country which gave birth to leading world mobile manufacturer and which is asked to provide accurate measuring devices and/or control programs for multibillion satellites and where Google and other multinationals want to establish their server centers because it is offers combination of high technology knowhow, safety and security.

    This all was achieved through very simple thing. Unity of people. There was little room for dividing society like multiculturalism wants to do.

    Honestly, tell me Enrique, why you try to imply that multiculturalism would bring people together when it’s basic principle is to divide people?

    • Enrique

      –You NEVER in the history of this blog as far as I have read it, said that immigrants are stupid when they do not grasp that they need to LEARN USEFUL SKILLS before trying to get employed.

      Why would I want to call any group stupid? That would be a dumb way to approach an issue. Unemployment is a problem due to many factors. It is an issue that we have to tackle in Finland – and I am not only speaking of immigrants but of all people that live in Finland.

  46. Tiwaz

    -“Why would I want to call any group stupid?”

    If they act to fit the title, then title is deserved.

    -“That would be a dumb way to approach an issue.”

    As opposed to blaming Finns for shortcomings of immigrants? Right.

    -“Unemployment is a problem due to many factors. It is an issue that we have to tackle in Finland – and I am not only speaking of immigrants but of all people that live in Finland.”

    But it is the immigrants whom you bring forth every time.

    And never, not single time, have you admitted that biggest obstacle for immigrant employment is their failure to understand and adjust to Finnish society.
    Or learn skills which have actual USE in Finnish society.

    I would love to see you ask in your blog in clear, simple words to immigrants whining how they cannot get a job if they have ever considered that blame could be in THEM.

    Not always, there are some racists in right positions who will deny immigrant employment on ideological grounds. But huge majority of immigrant unemployment is direct result of immigrant stupidity.

    Why stupidity? Because that is what it is.

    Finland is 5 million people nation. There is very little room for “no-speak” immigrants to find employment. Economy just is not large enough to create such niche unlike in UK with it’s 50+million people or USA with 300+ million.

    So when immigrants first question is “Where can I get a job without speaking Finnish” it IS stupidity.
    They should ask “Where and how I can learn Finnish most efficiently?”

    There are issues in Finland, lots of them. But problem with your approach is that it stubbornly tries to pretend that all problems go away through appeasement of immigrants. Or emulating UK or USA.

    Finland is NOT UK, it is NOT USA. Our geographical, demographic and historical positions are totally different. Saying “see how well it works (or more commonly does not work) in UK/USA” is not contributing to anything”. Because it assumes that what works in USA will work in Finland.

    But different situations require different solutions.

    • Enrique

      –But it is the immigrants whom you bring forth every time.

      Tiwaz, you should have lived in the 1930s. I am certain some of your ideas would find a suitable home. Since immigrants are a part of this society, they have a total right to bring forth their issues. That is how a democratic society works.

  47. Tony Garcia

    “they have a total right to bring forth their issues.”

    So does the Finns, including those with PhD in linguistics who don’t waist too much time reading social thinkers…

    “That is how a democratic society works.”

    Yes it’s.

    • Enrique

      Tony, who says that they don’t. But living in a democratic society I can judge freely and have my thoughts. I also have the right – and obligation – to defend the institutions of the society I live in. Human rights and the constitution are important. Do those people who want to limit other people’s rights represent those values? In many respects, they do.

  48. Tony Garcia

    “Do those people who want to limit other people’s rights represent those values? In many respects, they don’t.”

    Amen to that…

    • Enrique

      Sorry Tony, my mistake. I wanted to say that in many respects they do.

  49. DeTant Blomhat

    “Since immigrants are a part of this society, they have a total right to bring forth their issues.”

    Are they a part of this society if they refuse to be a part of this society?

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