Halla-aho says ghettoization spreading in Finland’s major cities

by , under Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

Perussuomalaiset (PS) MP Jussi Halla-aho said on a popular talk show that he stands by everything he said and doesn’t regret anything. He does, however, admit that sometimes the timing of what he said was wrong. He then tells us that ghettoization is taking place ” full steam ahead” in Finland’s biggest cities.

As Migrant Tales has warned and as scandals continue to rock the PS whiile opinion polls show voters turning their backs on the right-wing populist party, the anti-immigration message of the PS will start to pick up.  Halla-aho didn’t lose such an opportunity on the talk show, claiming that our biggest cities are turning into ghettos.

Some analysts see, however, that his far-right anti-immigration rhetoric are the problem that will cause social exclusion and ghetoization.

With the usual poker face, Halla-aho tells us that all he want to do is avoid the problems that immigration brought to Sweden. He says on the [Tom Enbuske talk] show that Anders Breivik, the Norwegian mass killer is a mentally ill lone wolf, despite the fact that he quoted Halla-aho in his anti-Islam manifesto.  Certainly it’s convenient for Halla-aho to single out Breivik as a madman because it permits him to wash his hands of the probable impact his xenophobic rhetoric may have on others.

On a more positive note, the anti-immigration message that spread like wildfire in Finland before the parliamentary election appears to have met greater scrutiny today by the media, some politicians and the general public.  A case in point is the Helena Eronen scandal that suggested   “armbands” for foreigners.

One typical debate and public-relations stunt used by Halla-aho and his far-right group is profiling themselves as white Finland’s saviors and victims of the media.  He claims that in Finland one cannot have a different opinion concerning immigration despite the fact that it was his anti-immigration message got him elected to parliament in the first place.

Below are two classic videoclips that Halla-aho doesn’t regret. On the one immediately below he warns “most Finnish cities will be surrounded by a ring of burning ghettos.”  Finland’s foreign population in 2010-11 totalled 167,954 people, or a mere 3.1% of the total poulation.

Here is another one that was used in last  year’s parliamentary election. The campaign ad asks if multiculturalism is a “too hot potato” for Finland? Note the turban on the potatoe. Isn’t it from India?

Multiculturalism means for Halla-aho an immigration policy that permits Muslims and Africans from moving to Finland and Europe.

These videoclips were taken from Jussi K. Nieminen’s Facebook page.

  1. Yossie

    Lets see what Halla-aho said:

    – Gettoutuminen on kuitenkin jo täyttä häkää käynnissä suurimmissa kaupungeissa, toteaa kansanedustaja.

    -Mies haluaisikin ennaltaehkäistä Ruotsin ongelmat.

    – Kenelläkään hallituksesta ei ole vastausta siihen, miten ratkaistaan ongelmat tai sitten tavat ovat sellaisia, ettei niistä voi puhua.

    How Enrique counters his arguments and discredits him?

    “Some analysts see, however, that his far-right anti-immigration rhetoric are the problem that will cause social exclusion and ghetoization.”

    Thats all. Who are these analysts? No idea.. Rest is just general Persu- and Halla-ahobashing. No wonder I was dissapointed after coming to this blog, hoping someone might be able to disprove Halla-aho’s arguments.

    If anti-immigration rhetoric is what causes the ghetoization, howcome Sweden is plagued by it? As far as I have understood, they really havent had any meaningful anti-immigration party untill just recently.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Thats all. Who are these analysts? No idea.. Rest is just general Persu- and Halla-ahobashing. No wonder I was dissapointed after coming to this blog, hoping someone might be able to disprove Halla-aho’s arguments.

      If you look at social scientists researching integration this is the result. If you have a society that excludes people you will have ghettos. The langauge of racism, prejudice and social exclusion is the main culprit. Nothing brilliant about figuring that one out.

      You ask about Sweden, then I respond to you that they haven’t done enough to integrate people. But I do think that Sweden has succeeded in this. Go to Rinkeby School as one positive example.

      It’s incredible that some make weird statments about immigration. One of these is seeing immigrant groups as “perfect.” They are made up of humans and because of that they are imperfect, like the majority of society.

  2. Sasu

    Jussi Halla Aho voisi ottaa esiin tilastot ja kysyä kuinka suuri osa maahanmuuttajista on eurooppalaisia. Kun hän tuntuu unohtavan, että siitä kolmesta prosentista puolet ovat eurooppalaisia..

  3. Risto

    If you exclude people you will end up with gettos. Gettos of the poor. Immigrants tend to be poor people, not all, of course, but many are.

    If a society don’t give proper chances to those groups and doesn’t do the extra effort to help them grasp these chances (by offering language courses, integration programs so that they know in what kind of society they have ended up or have choosen to come to), if society is discriminating those immigrants on the labor market, in schools, when politicians can openly spread their generalizing hateful messages about these groups, then and only then will society create a big problem of which one of the manifestations is gettoization.

    Now I ask the PS and Juicy Allo Allo and the likes: are you interested in finding solutions for these groups of people, are you willing to build a society where everybody benefits and where everybody can parttake?

    Or are you already thinking about the most simple solutio? I mean, sending ‘them’ all back is useless and irrealistsic?

    What are your solutions?

  4. justicedemon

    Interesting that Allah-oho should choose to raise his public profile during the trial of the Norwegian mass child killer. Listening to Breivik’s statement is a bit like reading Scripta. The same axe-grinding hodge-podge of selected facts, half-truths and distortions forced into a certain context.

    • Migrant Tales

      JusticeDemon, what was interesting from the interview with Tuomas Enbuske was what he said about Anders Breivik. Certainly it’s pretty clear that he wants to picture him as a “mad loan wolf” that had nothing to do with the anti-immigration rhetoric he writes on Scripta.

      Scripta was the first blog that attacked Migrant Tales in September 2008. I’ll never forget reading one of the comments on his blog stating since Finns were so racist if should be protected since it is an integral part of the national character. This is Scripta’s level.

  5. Mark

    Maybe Allah-oho is trying to do some damage limitation – when people hear Breiviks ideas and think – hey, that’s pretty much identical to some of the stuff coming out of the Far Right in Finland, what is this hatred we are peddling? Allah-oho is saying, hey, don’t worry, he’s just a crazy guy! Except that this crazy guy is perfectly lucid and articulate and quite able to show us exactly the twisted logic of cultural self-defence that he BELIEVED to the extent that he chose to act on it in a brutal fashion. That’s the problem here, if people really do believe this right wing shit, it’s hard to imagine how things can end in anything other than a war.

    Allah-oho wants a war because HE can’t live with the idea of negotiating values with Muslims, even though 16 million of them live in Europe and generally speaking, things go pretty much as normal!

  6. pun the librarian

    Hi,

    Reading your posts about Ylilauta, stuff like “By attacking and insulting us, Ylilauta destroys its whole defense in a second. What it does is reveal, however, is what it is: A place where anti-social behavior and racism thrive anonymously.” is extremely funny when you look at the comment section of this post with funny name-calling like “Juicy Allo Allo” and “Allah-oho” by your anonymous co-editors.

    Seeing those comments didn’t really change my view of Migrant Tales in any way but it is quite revealing to see that your site doesn’t practice what it preaches.

  7. Yossie

    First of all, immigrants are always in disadvantage by default. They cant talk the local language and dont know the culture. As such, if it the immigrant doesnt offer anything special skill/knowledge that most of the finns doesnt have, it is no wonder that they wont be employed. You can bitch and moan all you want, but thats how it always goes. Same for finns if they want to move abroad.

    Knowing this, you want to have more more immigrants here, who will fall in to the lowest socio-economical position mostly because of the fact above. You people seem to want more more “integration effort” from local population of course. Yet there doesnt seem to be anyplace where in the world where enough effort has been done? So its a question of how much effort should be done and how? No one really knows do they?

    Halla-aho and likes seem to want stop poor, violent ghetto’s by means of limiting problematic immigration. You all argue that there is only 3% immigrants and what not. However, like Risto points out, sending people back when the problems falls into our hands isnt realistic. As such, actions need to be taken now, rather than when its already too late.

    You people seem to want more people in, sure we dont have jobs for natives either, but wont matter, if they wont get employed, we blame racism!

  8. D4R

    Risto: If you exclude people you will end up with gettos. Gettos of the poor. Immigrants tend to be poor people, not all, of course, but many are.

    If a society don’t give proper chances to those groups and doesn’t do the extra effort to help them grasp these chances (by offering language courses, integration programs so that they know in what kind of society they have ended up or have choosen to come to), if society is discriminating those immigrants on the labor market, in schools, when politicians can openly spread their generalizing hateful messages about these groups, then and only then will society create a big problem of which one of the manifestations is gettoization.

    Now I ask the PS and Juicy Allo Allo and the likes: are you interested in finding solutions for these groups of people, are you willing to build a society where everybody benefits and where everybody can parttake?

    Or are you already thinking about the most simple solutio? I mean, sending ‘them’ all back is useless and irrealistsic?

    What are your solutions?

    Risto well said, i couldn’t have said it better, the thing is, just complaining about the matter wont solve a problem, bring a logical solution not racism and exclusion, otherwise you’ll get what your concerned off.

  9. I am

    Hi MT and yossie,

    I can talk Finnish language and i know ur culture, but it could not help me for anything, am ready to work i am active and full of energy but still am workless, what i worked here was for free, system call it work practice, but it is a modern slavery system.it is racist because it made me to work like a slave for a very very small money.
    yossie we dont need to know about our cultures, it is not necessary thing but it was a favour for me so i studied about with my own way and will and i know it very well now, but it is not a point that can make u a lucky person here. I am happy with my own culture, we all have culture.
    System should work on all problems in this society step by step, day by day why its lazy, not active and bore?Change is what we need it, chnage is coming with wise and not with racist.
    Wish a best weather for our society in Finland an air full of peace and success
    Happy day to MT, u Yossie and world

  10. Risto

    “Slavery, nice vocabulary. To be really precise, the slavery bites 4 times more on Finns than on foreignors. Still racist?

    How do you get to the EU-comission? Through slavery of course. So all who take up internships in the comission are slaves, and for all who come from outside Belgium can consider the EU racists. ”

    Could you elaborate on this? Especially the part on Belgium?

  11. Elven archer

    “”am ready to work i am active and full of energy but still am workless”

    Join the club. What is your education level, if you don’t mind me asking? There are Bachelors and even Masters working as cashiers in grocery stores everywhere and it’s not even easy to get those jobs, not talking about the jobs suiting their education. There are a lot of unemployed highly educated people with special skills and not a way to put those skills in use.

    “what i worked here was for free, system call it work practice, but it is a modern slavery system.it is racist because it made me to work like a slave for a very very small money.”

    It really is modern slavery but where is the racism? It’s the same for us all, ergo it can’t be racism so I ask you that you please stop calling it racist. That system is a direct transfer of income to the employers. They take these interns, use them, maybe even motivating them by promising a permanent position, and then throw them away and take the next one in line and repeat the process. Not all, of course, but way too many.

  12. I am

    Elf,
    I dont need ur advice, i know how to join
    This is not ur business to ask me whats my education level first
    Secondly
    If a system makes u slave it shows that has not respect for u and ur rights thats a slavery role, racist
    Also am not going to play game with u Elf, so please dont count me in ur game

  13. Väinämöinen

    Risto

    EU-entry is through internships usually and it is extremely hard to get an internship. I am-philosophy is that racist institutions of the EU can be found in Belgium, France, Luxembourg.

    Probably the whole Europe and the entire world is racist then.

  14. Elven archer

    About ghettoization.

    When you look at the illiteracy rates in the third world countries you see that it’s not uncommon for some countries or areas to have more people that can not read than can.

    So let’s assume a more or less average newcomer from one of those areas. He can’t read. That implies he has no education at all. If he even has some special skills (which usually are acquired by education), those are not very likely needed in a highly specialized modern society. He faces totally foreign culture and it’s values he doesn’t understand or agree. He speaks no local language. He speaks not, or at least not well, any international language, in practice English. He has no friends. He has no money.

    And then in this highly competitive environment with lots of unemployed people already with much better language skills, better education, better understanding about the modern society and so on… he’s told to compete. Be better than the rest. Get a job in a situation in which there is always more applicants than open positions. How?

    The example certainly shows it takes no racism or right-wing “propaganda” for our fictive person to not succeed in the work market. This attempt of his was quite doomed from the beginning. Any thoughts?

  15. BlandaUpp

    I would have appreciated if the interviewer asked army conscription dodging Alla-oho for proof of this ghettoization. What institutes did the studies etc. The slimy dog that Alla-oho is, likes to make up statistics and twist reality to suit his own political needs.

    We don’t live in America. We have no ghettos in our society. The poorest people here, some of whom are refugees, are given housing or subsidised housing by the government. They can’t pick and choose where they want to live.

    Is he implying that the government he is part of is creating ghettos? Why hasn’t he or his party opened their mouths about it in parliament before?

    People with jobs and their own income can choose to live where they want to live and nobody has the right to stop people from living where they choose to live as long as they pay their rent.

    Hasn’t he been watching the news about Breivik being declared sane? Is he embarrased to be associated with a terrorist that he and the anti-Multiculturalism Islamophobia brigade inspired?

  16. Elven archer

    “This is not ur business to ask me whats my education level first”

    I asked you politely because it’s a very relevant competitive factor in the work market.

    “If a system makes u slave it shows that has not respect for u and ur rights thats a slavery role, racist”

    No, it is not racist. Don’t you know how many Finns are in the same system working in effect without pay and that’s called practicing like you described? The system doesn’t care about your skin color or your origin, it does the very same to everyone if you are in a certain unemployed position in the work market. Ergo it’s not racist.

    “Also am not going to play game with u Elf, so please dont count me in ur game”

    If you can’t give a simple rationale to back up your claim (which didn’t make any sense) or take a simple rationale or be at least willing to discuss matters in a civilized way, I don’t wonder if you have trouble finding work.

  17. Väinämöinen

    BlandaUpp

    ”We have no ghettos in our society.” May be, but JHA did not say that. The ghettoization has been running for ten years perhaps 15 in Finland.

  18. I am

    Väinämöinen,

    Philosophy is talking about racist is not wrong but being racist is wrong,
    Whats mean of freedom of speech if i cant talk then?

  19. BlandaUpp

    Väinämöinen

    What is his and your definition of “ghettoization”? He’s been talking about it for years yet he offers no solutions to this non existent problem that he is scared might eventually happen in his wet dreams. Reality is that it doesn’t exist! All he’s doing is fear mongering.

  20. Väinämöinen

    bullying, threatening to take life of people. Immigrants vs native population.

    It may not exist in your narrow mind, but in reality it does.

  21. Elven archer

    “He’s been talking about it for years yet he offers no solutions to this non existent problem ”

    If it doesn’t exist how can you expect him offer a solution to it? That’s a contradiction in your thinking. And he clearly has offered solutions.

    http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/maahanmuuttopolitiikan_hahmottelua_osa2.html

    Definition? Really? Watch tv, it will give you a definition. It’s about society breaking down. We don’t have it yet but we do have some areas going towards it. Poverty and indifference gathering and condensing geographically.

  22. Elven archer

    Also people doing well (or at least better) moving out from a neighborhood and taking their kids to different schools, that’s a sign of this phenomenon. And that has been happening, it’s documented.

    And it’s utterly pointless to suggest that Halla-aho is something special talking about it like he was alone in his thinking. Many others have done that too.

    “Asunto- ja viestintäministeri Krista Kiuru (sd.) kertoo Uuden Suomen haastattelussa pitävänsä ghettoutumista vakavana uhkana Suomelle.

    – Ghettoutuminen on liian rankka sana tässä vaiheessa, mutta eritytymiskehitystä on nähtävissä. Huono-osaisuus kasaantuu ja tämä uhka on otettava tosissaan, Kiuru sanoo.”

    http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/116056-ghettoja-suomeen-%E2%80%93-%E2%80%9Dtodellinen-uhka%E2%80%9D

    That is basically the same message that Halla-aho gave: it’s not here yet, but there are worrying signs.

    Also for example minister Jan Vapaavuori has expressed the same concerns referring to social studies. He said the recent research is worrying.

  23. Yossie

    “We have no ghettos in our society.”

    Not yet. Thats the point why there needs to be action now. When we have let in a lot of more immigrants from 3rd world countries and start to have same problems like rest of the Europe, well, then its too late already.

  24. Elven archer

    I really hope somebody would comment my sadly too real an example about illiterate newcomer in our highly competitive society. How can he succeed with the cards dealt? It’s not that he’s been treated unfairly. It’s just that he has very little to offer in a society based on supply and demand.

  25. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer, Väinämöinen

    Show me a ghetto in Finland. Reality is that it doesn’t exist! All Allah-oho is doing is fear mongering and spreading hatred towards refugees and immigrants that won’t help integration.

    Somalis in Finland are one of the most discriminated against groups in Europe. http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2012/02/finnish_somalis_no_improvement_in_discrimination_3237610.html

    Don’t you think it would have been more constructive of Allah-oho to come out in an interview like this and say that he would like to reach out to our country’s immigrant communities to discuss with them about challenges they may be facing in society?

    Wouldn’t you agree that a more positive, interactive attitude and approach to a perceived hypothetical future problem would yield better results than simply speaking badly about people and chasing them to the edge of society?

    From reading his writings, I get a picture that he is incapable of taking this approach because he already has prejudiced preconceived ideas about who and what they are.

  26. Elven archer

    “Show me a ghetto in Finland. Reality is that it doesn’t exist!”

    You have some serious reading problems. It has been said to you many times already that there is not ghettos in Finland *yet*, but there are clear indicators that if this kind of development continues there will be. So thinks also two ministers. That is what Halla-aho said. So says the recent studies which the ministers were referring to. So please try to grasp this obviously hard concept called time.

  27. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer

    “there are clear indicators that if this kind of development continues there will be”

    Show me the studies that show this is true in our country or stfu with this fearmongering. It doesn’t exist. FACT!

  28. Elven archer

    “Somalis in Finland are one of the most discriminated against groups in Europe.”

    They think they are. Read the study, that’s the result of the study. It didn’t try to find out what is but what they think about what is. The Kenyans are doing very well in the job market. Why is that?

    “Wouldn’t you agree that a more positive, interactive attitude and approach to a perceived hypothetical future problem would yield better results than simply speaking badly about people and chasing them to the edge of society?”

    Would you care to answer my previous example about the newcomer (check UN’s stats about illiteracy if you don’t find at first it to be a quite realistic scenario) and then describe the attitude enough for getting him to success? And I really don’t understand your talk about hypothetical future. If it is purely hypothetical, it would not matter what the “right-wingers” say, wouldn’t it? So by your logic it would be pointless to even discuss the attitudes.

    And wouldn’t you agree that this “hypothetical” problem didn’t even exist in Finland if you accepted Halla-aho’s major suggestions?

  29. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer

    “The Kenyans are doing very well in the job market. Why is that?”

    Americans, Swedes, Poles, Russians, Estonians, British, Norwegians, Italians etc. are all doing worse than the Ghanaians, Ethiopians, Indians, Nigerians and Kenyans on the job market here.

    Were they all refugees who escaped a bloody civil war? What’s their excuse?

    Army conscription dodging Alah-oho brings nothing new to the table. Our immigration laws are already tight and we accept very few refugees here anyway.

    He seems obsessed with Somalis while there are 3 times more Russians unemployed here than Somalis and an equal amount of unemployed Estonians as Somalis.

  30. BlandaUpp

    Väinämöinen

    That report shows that Somalis are victims of the most hate crimes in Finland. Exactly the opposite of what you say which makes you a pathetic liar.

    “The majority of the suspected offenders were Finnish citizens (80%), male (81%) and between 15 to 24 years old.

    The majority (58%) of the injured parties in the suspected racist crimes were Finnish citizens. one third (31%) of the Finnish injured parties were born outside Finland. The narrative descriptions of the incidents revealed that some of the Finnish-born injured parties are second generation immigrants, for example, and some belong to the ethnic roma minority.

    Among foreign citizens resident in Finland, citizens of somalia, russia and iraq are most commonly victims of racist crime. in relation to the number of foreign ci- tizens resident in Finland, citizens of somalia experienced the highest fre- quency of racially motivated crime in 2010. The survey conducted by the european agency for Fundamental rights (Fra) in 2008 also indicates the poor position of somalis in Finland. according to the survey, of all ethnic minority groups in europe, the somalis in Finland are among the groups that experience the highest levels of racist violence and discrimination.” – pg 116

  31. Elven archer

    ““The majority of the suspected offenders were Finnish citizens (80%), male (81%) and between 15 to 24 years old.”

    How many percent there is Finnish citizens in Finland? About 98 %? I don’t see them being suspected in 98 % of the cases though 😉

    “The survey conducted by the european agency for Fundamental rights (Fra) in 2008 also indicates the poor position of somalis in Finland.”

    And who’s fault is that?

  32. D4R

    Yossie: We have no ghettos in our society.”

    Not yet. Thats the point why there needs to be action now. When we have let in a lot of more immigrants from 3rd world countries and start to have same problems like rest of the Europe, well, then its too late already.

    Si is’t being racist to them going to solve the problem? what you Finns are doing right now is very very demeaning and ethically wrong, you guys are internationally self certified racist and your proud to be one, immigrants are finding especialy vicible ones a helluva time.

  33. D4R

    BlandaUpp: Elven archer

    “The Kenyans are doing very well in the job market. Why is that?”

    Americans, Swedes, Poles, Russians, Estonians, British, Norwegians, Italians etc. are all doing worse than the Ghanaians, Ethiopians, Indians, Nigerians and Kenyans on the job market here.

    Were they all refugees who escaped a bloody civil war? What’s their excuse?

    Army conscription dodging Alah-oho brings nothing new to the table. Our immigration laws are already tight and we accept very few refugees here anyway.

    He seems obsessed with Somalis while there are 3 times more Russians unemployed here than Somalis and an equal amount of unemployed Estonians as Somalis.

    The reason why Elven is obsessed with us is because he is a racist. Notice how he doen’t have anything bad to say about Russians or Estonians even though they are the most criminal offenders in Finland, now everybody should ask a question, why is’t that Elven doesnt have anything to say about them? is’t because they’re white? most certainly 🙂

  34. justicedemon

    Does anyone think that the Aldgate-Whitechapel-Spitalfields-Stepney-Mile End districts of East London were a ghetto in the 1920s? The area certainly had a very sizeable and locally concentrated Jewish immigrant population comprising around 100,000 largely poor and illiterate Ashkenazi Jewish refugees who had fled from persecution in Russia. Housing conditions were generally poor, and nowadays there are only about 3,000 mainly elderly Jewish folk still living there.

    The British Union of Fascists famously tried and failed to extract political capital from the situation and circumstances of that immigrant community. Much of their rhetoric is echoed in the lies and distortions that we read here from scum of the same ilk concerning similar new immigrant communities in Finland.

    THEY SHALL NOT PASS

  35. justicedemon

    Elf

    How many percent there is Finnish citizens in Finland? About 98 %? I don’t see them being suspected in 98 % of the cases though 🙂

    Your smilie is again evidence that you know you are being intellectually dishonest in exactly the same way as that 2008 HS article that you linked to the other day.

    Explain how you adjusted your figure to include foreign visitors.

    Repeating a distortion that you have already acknowledged amounts to deliberate propagandising. Please explain why you want people to believe distorted figures that even a school student can refute. What is your percentage in all this? Pure mischief or something more sinister?

  36. D4R

    Väinämöinen: BU

    sorry, page 70.

    Somalis, Turks, Iraks, Afgans and Jugos hugely overrepresented

    Tilastokeskuksen mukaan romanialaiset tekevät ulkomaalaisista kolmanneksi eniten rikoksia Suomessa. Romanialaisia enemmän rikoksia tekevät virolaiset ja venäläiset.

    LInkkihttp://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/rikos.shtml/2012/04/1523373/romanialaiset-tekevat-suomessa-kolmanneksi-eniten-rikoksia.

    Why arent you speaking against Russians or Estonians? it’s because you’re a racist and you just got exposed.

  37. BlandaUpp

    Väinämöinen, Elven archer

    We native Finns commits acts of racism twice a day according to those statistics. Granted that it’s a small but hardcore portion of our population, lets say 10% of the people who voted for PS do these crimes, so that would be 1.9% of our population commiting 657 reported racism crimes. That’s a very high number now proportional to 4% of our population that are immigrants. Minorities who face this racism constantly can be excused for retaliating once every 2 weeks. They are in a weaker position in this society.

    Proportionally their retaliatory racism, 1 single incident every 2 weeks is underrepresented in the grand avalanche of unreported racism they face daily.

    Elven archer has a reading comprehension problem which is why he is unable to read an entire piece of text and responds by grabbing chunks completely out of context. The reason for Somalis’ poor position in society is “according to the survey, of all ethnic minority groups in europe, the somalis in Finland are among the groups that experience the highest levels of racist violence and discrimination.”. There you have it. I will now put my children to bed and call it a night.

  38. D4R

    As you can see no Somalis mentioned in MTV3 news, the biggest crime offenders were Russians and Estonians then came Roma group, but no mention of Somalis, and you keep coming here and claiming Somalis to be the biggest criminal, your countries statistics say different, but your racust statistics says yes, now you can go back to your Hommaforum gangsters and ask for more false accusations.

  39. Elven archer

    “The reason why Elven is obsessed with us is because he is a racist.”

    If I were it would be because of people with your intelligence. But fortunately I am not.

  40. Väinämöinen

    D4R

    BlandaUpp agreed with the populatio for Russians in Finland. Therefore Somalis are the biggest criminals amoung immigrants in Finland

  41. Elven archer

    “They are in a weaker position in this society.”

    And being overrepresented in those stats will help? Why some people think it’s ok for some to tarnish the reputation of the immigrants in this country? The root of the problem is not talking about statistics but the people in those statistics doing things which tarnish the reputation of the immigrants. They are the ones making it harder for the immigrants. People defending them and defending policies that enable this problematic behavior must also carry their part of the blame.

    “The reason for Somalis’ poor position in society is “according to the survey, of all ethnic minority groups in europe, the somalis in Finland are among the groups that experience the highest levels of racist violence and discrimination.””

    I understood it perfectly. I quote me. “It didn’t try to find out what is but what they think about what is.”. One’s experience of things it not the same what really happened. Again, why The Kenyans have done so good in Finland although they are physically quite similar and their names are likewise foreign?

  42. Yossie

    Commentations have been totally derailed here…

    I believed the issue was the ghettoization. Which is happening and increasing and how it most certainly doesnt help to import uneducated and illiterate people here who will be ending up in the lowest socio-economical ladder and as such, increasing the ghettoization.

  43. D4R

    How growing racism makes Finland known as a racist country and an almost no-go-country of some races

    Sunday, 29 January 2012

    Finland’s reputation abroad is being strained as a result of growing racism acknowledged the Finish newspaper, Helsingin Sanomat.

    According to a survey that the paper carried, with its readers based abroad, an image of Finland has developed – an image which shows Finland as an intolerant and even racist country.

    In a number of responses the paper was told how in the world has taken note of support the True Finns has gained in the country and the various statements that many perceived as hostile to foreigners.

    In the questionnaire were people were not actually asked specifically about intolerance, but in which the topic came up when the newspaper asked the question on how to make the image of Finland better, the vast majority of the participants feels that Finland has a good reputation abroad.
    In total, the questionnaire was answered by over 1100 Finns in 78 countries.

    Some reactions of Finns who gave their opinions are summarised thus

    Jouni Hyrkäs, Norway
    “Finnish should be more known in Norway. The knowledge of Finland is very weak here. Finland is known mainly in the areas of basic design…”

    Wind Beach, The Netherlands
    “Finland’s foreigners have been surprisingly received a lot of attention. This gives the impression, and introverted nature and not good for Finland’s image in the world, where international cooperation is the norm in almost all areas of performance

    Jenny Power, Belgium
    “Finland is has a very good image in the world, so I do not see any improvement.”

    Eva Holm, Reunion, a French overseas department
    “In addition to the basic values of Finnish, which I think have integrity, stamina and tolerance, should bring the joy of life and relaxing in Finnish society.”

    Jansen sine-Matilainen, The Netherlands
    “Finland is considered here in the Netherlands, still as a Soviet bloc country.”
    By Scancomark.se Team

  44. Elven archer

    “Explain how you adjusted your figure to include foreign visitors.”

    It was not my figure. BlandaUpp used the number to blame the Finnish. So the burden of proof lies on his/her shoulders to show that 80% of the suspects is enough to put a particular blame to the group which represents 98 % of the people. I just proved the Finns are not contributing to the hate crimes in a way that they could be singled out and blamed for it like you do in this blog so eagerly and without rationale. I didn’t make any claims myself, just presenting undeniable counter arguments in the context (the discussion in this thread blames the Finns of being discriminatory and racist).

    Explain how you adjusted your interpretation to include the Finns visiting foreign countries.

    And while you are at it, show me the figures excluding the people with foreign origin who have in the recent years gotten a Finnish citizenship and therefore are considered as Finns in the statistics.

    There’s a constant flow of people in AND out. But there is not such a moment in which 1/5 of the people their feet in the Finnish soil are foreigners. There is not such a moment that every one in five walking past you is a foreigner. Also the tourists have little reason to make hate crimes in a foreign country. Please show me you evidence of tourists committing hate crimes in Finland.

  45. Elven archer

    justicedemon, why don’t you condemn the racist things D4R is saying about the Finns? Why don’t you ask the proof about that? Why don’t you question him to show that at the time the Finnish citizens were less than 80 % of all people in Finland?

    Everyone knows why.

  46. Mark

    Ghettos are a result of several factors. Not enough jobs, poor investment, poor planning, overcrowding, runaway crime, discrimination in the labour market, income inequalities, falling school standards, and ‘white flight’. Most of these factors are beyond the control of the majority of the residents themselves, though clearly the ethnicity of the residents is a factor in regard to discrimination, white flight and even lack of investment or planning.

    Clearly immigration requires planning. Likewise, the provision of appropriate services has to balance concentrated and therefore more cost-effective services against the development of ghetto areas.

    However, it is also important to point out that simply because a small area can develop a minority majority population, this does not necessarily mean that it will be a deprived area. Many diverse population areas of major capitals and large towns can also be very productive areas, so let’s not make the mistake of thinking that a ghetto is just a lot of foreign faces in one place. It’s a set of very specific and intransigent social problems that have not been tackled adequately by local and national government. Areas of suburban and urban decline are common to all the major developed countries and are typically a part of a pattern of economic decline and transition that has left a major part of a workforce in limbo or in desperate need of rediversification.

    In the four years from 2000 to 2004, the number of immigrants went up by 11,000 but the number of employed foreigners also went up by 10,000.

    While 30% of some population groups are not in the labour force, the idea that they are not being productive for society is not necessarily the case. Many women choose to stay at home and have larger than average families. Let’s remember that being a homemaker is a productive activity that leads to future workers, and typically workers that will be much more adapted to the Finnish labour market. The fact that homemakers are not considered ‘workers’ is part of Finland’s and the West’s patriarchal and gendered views of ‘women’s work’. The fact that child rearing and homemaking is ‘unpaid’ work that nevertheless benefits the wider society is still a sore point for many women, who carry the absolute vast majority of this burden. Crying about women’s rights in developing countries and the countries of immigrants is totally hypocritical if when those women come to Finland and are productive in the home that they are then classed as ‘economically inactive’.

    Of types of employment contracts (open-ended, fixed term etc.), Somalis have the highest number of ‘fixed term’ contracts (54%), meaning that as a group, they carry the highest amount of job insecurity. They are typically the first to be made unemployed in a downturn, and therefore one would expect them to have a corresponding higher unemployment rate during an economic downturn, which we are currently emerging from.

    Compare this to the fact that among the immigrant groups, Somalis have the best health and injury records, at 16% of the workforce compared to 30% of the Vietnamese workforce, who suffer injury or illness that hampers work ability. That almost certainly flies in the face of popular stereotypes about who are the ‘hard workers’, though illness and injury should not be considered proxies for ‘laziness’.

    Elven archer

    Many immigrants who come to work in Finland manage to find work, including Somalis. They typically work in retail, manufacturing, services and education. These are perfectly valid occupations that provide necessary services and economic activity to Finnish society. Many immigrants while being uneducated are not necessarily stupid, as some seem to assume. It is not uncommon for immigrant groups from around the world to outperform native students. However, problems of urban deprivation also tend to have a knock-on effect on education standards and attainment levels. This can and should be avoided.

    The case you gave is not unlike a similar example I described on another thread some weeks ago on Migrant Tales. It is important to recognise the difficulties, but it also important to be open to solutions and progress for the individual. I have personal experience of working directly with immigrants in this situation in London. Many dentists, economists, doctors and other highly qualified and more average qualified immigrants that I knew were working in the service industries. However, their children typically went to college and universities and entered occupations like engineering, IT and medical services. Yes, even the children of parents who barely spoke English managed to advance, even while the parents were working. Many immigrants see this sacrifice of their own careers as being worthwhile so that their children could have a safe future.

    Immigrants are not ‘objects of charity or welfare’. They are agents, with functions, skills, know-how and potential. But people need the right circumstances and programs by which to realise their potential. The same is true of Finnish unemployment in general and especially in regard to long term unemployment. Progress is being made by changing the relationship with the individual and the way that the state responds to the circumstances of unemployment. Activation policies in Finland attempt to break down the beaurocratic obstacles to work. They see the individual as an active agent in their own employment scenario. A plan is drawn up, potentials are identified, appropriate training is sought, and the whole approach is to smooth the way back into the labour force. These are still fairly new policies, right across Europe. It is generally understood that welfare dependency is the coming together of several factors, with ‘laziness’ generally being only a minor factor. The most important thing is that there are jobs to go into, and that they are the kinds of jobs that fit to the skills of the unemployed workforce. These policies are easier to advance in cities, and for that reason, they are an important buttress against the development of ghettos. In fact, in Finland, by far the greater threat of ‘ghettos of unemployment’ is within rural and lesser populated areas of Finland.

    The question is not to build a narrative of pessimism, either in terms of social prospects or of cultural diversity. Rather, the issue is to construct an adequate response. This is something that Finland is generally very good at. It takes time. But Finland is already selling its administrative expertise abroad, and so the idea that Finns cannot create an adequate response to immigration is frankly insulting. There are always likely to be problems. And also, in the early stages of a diversification of a population (new immigration phase), then those problems will be more visible. There will always be additional challlenges during economic downturns, but these challenges are shared by the whole population, not just the immigrant population, they though tend to be disproportionately affected through no particular fault of their own.

    Elven, I have gone to the trouble to ignore the present state of our debating and presented reasonable arguments. i would appreciate if you would take this as an opportunity for debate and not an opportunity to ridicule. We might actually succeed in a debate for a change. I say that in all positivety.

  47. Elven archer

    Mark, glad to. Though I don’t know what exactly were your key points. Most of your text was very general in nature (and I’m not picking a fight here): “Many immigrants who come to work in Finland manage to find work, including Somalis.”

    Yes, many do but too few, I think that is the point of this whole worrying?

    “These are perfectly valid occupations that provide necessary services and economic activity to Finnish society.”

    There are hundreds of thousands (many hidden with bureaucratic means) of unemployed people already. So more people, with such skills already possessed by those, coming in are not helping. It makes no difference economically if a native or an immigrant is out of work, but more people means more mouths to feed, so it’s more burden to social support then when the limiting factor is the number of jobs. So the number of jobs is the key point here. When talking about third word people or otherwise people in the greatest danger to become marginalized they very rarely have special skills not already in abundance in the work force.

    “It is not uncommon for immigrant groups from around the world to outperform native students.”

    Some groups. This phenomenon is quite known in USA where the Asians show they hard work ethics (cultural differences, some would say) and maybe there are also some other things in their advantage that are not politically correct to mention. Lets say they are considered quite smart in public opinion. But when talked about immigration in general in Finland, or maybe in Sweden which is a very similar country more ahead of us in these things, the results are poor in comparison. Actually this is a good time to remind that very few is against all immigration, it’s about the quality of it. So if there are groups doing exceptionally well, bring them here. I don’t know anybody against that.

    “It is important to recognise the difficulties, but it also important to be open to solutions and progress for the individual.”

    Are there solutions? It takes a lot of work, time and resources even to put some people even remotely in the same competitive line as the rest who have enjoyed of the one of the best education systems in the world. And the success is still very unsure. It’s a hard and long process in a strange environment and takes a lot of motivation and confidence. Is the risk worth it? No, at least at the moment. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages hands down. So, until someone shows the ways to tip the scale I’m saying no. We are talking about lives here. We are talking about experimenting with people in a way that can’t be reversed. The changes in demographics are quite permanent.

    “They are agents, with functions, skills, know-how and potential.”

    That is exactly what I’m saying. These so called Tolerant and Good People (self appointed, of course) out there treat many like children. I don’t. I think that to respect is to demand (the same). For example I don’t expect someone to speak Finnish but I expect him to learn it like we all have learned languages. I want him to show some commitment not waiting a position in a language class to go there twice a week when there are libraries, guides, the web, magazines, books, tv, radio, other people to talk to and so on. So after a couple of years, I don’t accept not speaking Finnish for a reason to not getting a job.

    “But people need the right circumstances and programs by which to realise their potential.”

    There are a lot of uneducated people in the world. We are few. We are already spending more than we earn. We can’t be responsible for the lack of some nations’ getting their act together. It doesn’t even solve anything. The focus of the actions should be teaching them to fish and not giving fishes to a few selected individuals and let the others starve. So I say no to individuals trying to improve their own standard of living (without nothing relevant to offer in exchange) and yes to rather spending the same money to teaching everybody to fish. It’s tens of times more efficient. One man living here on social welfare costs the same as hundreds or even thousands getting education, books and such, in their own country where the living is much cheaper.

    • Mark

      Elven

      Yes, many do but too few, I think that is the point of this whole worrying?

      That depends. If it is a short-term phenomenon that reflects an integration timeline, then it’s not so worrying. After 15 years, Somali immigrants had an employment rate of 58% compared to an employment rate of 63% in the native population. If we also take into account that immigrant families are often larger in the first generation, then we must factor this into the employment rate, and see it as a positive and not a negative. In that sense, the idea of homemaking being classified as economically inactive is an insult to women.

      There are hundreds of thousands (many hidden with bureaucratic means) of unemployed people already. So more people, with such skills already possessed by those, coming in are not helping.

      I don’t see this as a consistent argument. Many of the unemployed are young people living in rural areas who are not prepared to move to the cities to work. If immigrants are largely concentrated in cities, they are not directly competing. But competition is not necessarily a bad thing in the labour market, is it? In fact, it’s a necessary dynamic. 🙂

      Prior to the recent Stock Market crash, Finland’s unemployment rate was 6%, which is more than sustainable. Compare that to Germany, which has been running at a much higher rate of employment and yet have still been economically strong.

      It makes no difference economically if a native or an immigrant is out of work, but more people means more mouths to feed, so it’s more burden to social support then when the limiting factor is the number of jobs.

      Yes, but a lack of labour or a diminishing labour force is also a limitation to growth or even sustainability. Likewise an increased population also leads to more labour demand, inevitably. The economics generally show a small net benefit from immigration, even using the most conservative models (see the recent UK Lords report). But sometimes the cost of not having a sustained population are far greater than the benefits of maintaining that population through immigration. Likewise, immigration now will bring the most benefits at the time when we will need it most, late 2020s.

      So the number of jobs is the key point here.

      Yes, but you cannot take a photograph. The economy is dynamic. Snapshots tell us very little. You have to look at trends and anticipate future changes. What is perfect circumstances for today is tomorrow’s disaster. Also, a lot of the jobs that immigrants do are jobs that natives don’t want to do. Fact.

      When talking about third word people or otherwise people in the greatest danger to become marginalized they very rarely have special skills not already in abundance in the work force.

      See above.

      “It is not uncommon for immigrant groups from around the world to outperform native students.”

      But when talked about immigration in general in Finland, or maybe in Sweden which is a very similar country more ahead of us in these things, the results are poor in comparison.

      Yep, and there is a good reason for this. The educational system in Somalia collapsed during the 80s and 90s. This means that many refugees from there need special assistance to enable them to make up for this. As we are quite happy to spend 12 years or more educating children in Finland, we need to take this long term approach with some immigrants too.

      Actually this is a good time to remind that very few is against all immigration, it’s about the quality of it. So if there are groups doing exceptionally well, bring them here. I don’t know anybody against that.

      Fair enough. But there is another side to this argument. The idea that the Western countries just go cherry picking in the developing world for the most educated and skilled workers is not immune from criticism. How can developing countries really develop if the West adopts a policy only of reaping the benefit of their investments in education? It’s not fair that immigrants come here and live as ‘freeloaders’, but likewise, it’s not fair if we drain the developing world only of it’s most educated or skilled. In this way, we undermine the development that we are trying to promote and which would act to diminish the drivers towards economic migration. Maybe you think it’s not a moral world, but generally speaking, the non-zero sum approach (win-win) is what takes us forward.

      Are there solutions? It takes a lot of work, time and resources even to put some people even remotely in the same competitive line as the rest who have enjoyed of the one of the best education systems in the world.

      This doesn’t ring true for me. For a start, people are individuals and some things will work for some and others won’t. Some will respond almost immediately, others will take more time. Some will continually struggle, and that is quite normal, in any population. I’ve seen immigrants succeeding in the face of all sorts of obstacles.

      The disadvantages outweigh the advantages hands down.

      This is a huge statement Elven, and basically, I cannot see your expertise in this area.

      So, until someone shows the ways to tip the scale I’m saying no.

      So what are you waiting for? Different statistics? I’m not being funny, but it seems to me that you don’t understand that statistics that are already available. I can’t see how you can really get an accurate picture. Are you going to go on media reports? On crime statistics? What exactly is it that will ‘decide when the scales have tipped?’.

      We are talking about lives here. We are talking about experimenting with people in a way that can’t be reversed. The changes in demographics are quite permanent.

      Well, I’m optimistic about people, especially meeting and talking with hundreds of immigrants in the UK. History tells us that almost every nation on the earth has an historical mix of people. There are minorities in almost every country, some of them going back centuries. Diversity is the norm, so I wouldn’t worry about demographics. Also, the politics of nationalism, while making a comeback, is not the future. The future is the ‘global village’. This is important from economic and political points of view. In fact, our recent economic woes only emphasize the need for further global structures.

      That is exactly what I’m saying. These so called Tolerant and Good People (self appointed, of course) out there treat many like children.

      I don’t see that.

      I think that to respect is to demand (the same). For example I don’t expect someone to speak Finnish but I expect him to learn it like we all have learned languages.

      Elven. Imagine you are a woman with three small children, one in kindergarten, two in school. After the first level of beginners classes, you have to try to find classes that fit to your children’s timetables and also find the money. You may also have to travel across town. Not only that, but when you get to the class, you fi, and that you are in a group with very mixed language competences, which can further slow the learning process. Likewise, the Finnish skills you are learning are geared to formal language, and do not necessarily equip to you to mix socially with Finns. Some people find a way around these limitations, some don’t. The government is working hard to develop language services that will be better adapted to those that need them. Likewise, literacy is an issue for many even before they begin their Finnish studies. But this is possible. This is the situation. Arguing to limit the people in this situation is a rather negative response. A positive response is to adapt and invest. It will pay dividends.

      I want him to show some commitment not waiting a position in a language class to go there twice a week when there are libraries, guides, the web, magazines, books, tv, radio, other people to talk to and so on. So after a couple of years, I don’t accept not speaking Finnish for a reason to not getting a job.

      You are unrealistic about people’s limitations and about learning a language in this kind of situation. Have you ever had to learn a language in a similar situation? Just asking.

      There are a lot of uneducated people in the world. We are few. We are already spending more than we earn. We can’t be responsible for the lack of some nations’ getting their act together. It doesn’t even solve anything.

      Most politicians recognise the interdependence of national security, economic development and social progress. The path ahead is mapped, the IMF and World Bank are supporting economic and political development, the UN and a host of international NGOs are working towards social development and protecting the rights of all the world’s citizens. This is the exercise of Western and international democracy. It is built on principles, on a vision for the future, on development, and on equality. What you are proposing is some kind of selfishness and cynicism that if adopted by Finland would put us outside the international fold. Think North Korea or, closer to home, Belarus. Seriously, no-one talks like that in international politics, and for good reason.

      The focus of the actions should be teaching them to fish and not giving fishes to a few selected individuals and let the others starve. So I say no to individuals trying to improve their own standard of living (without nothing relevant to offer in exchange) and yes to rather spending the same money to teaching everybody to fish.

      While I appreciate your sentiment about this, it really doesn’t come even close to articulating something that is practical or implementable. It’s just too vague, Elven. It doesn’t take account of where the world is at NOW and where it is going.

      One man living here on social welfare costs the same as hundreds or even thousands getting education, books and such, in their own country where the living is much cheaper.

      Not that that money is ever going to go to those people in the developing world.

  48. justicedemon

    Elf

    It is simply incorrect to say that Finns are a group which represents 98 % of the people. This is the specific mathematical error of not including visitors in the denominator. The fact that you are still trying to use such obviously distorted figures strongly suggests that you are not interested in truth, but merely trying to smear a population group.

    The point about including Finnish visitors abroad is pertinent, but obviously you would then have to include their offences in the numerator.

    I understand that the relevant police statistics are based on country of birth, so naturalisation is not a relevant factor.

    However, if you are serious about obtaining properly comparable statistics, then you must at least stop persistently citing figures that are based on crass mathematical errors. Frankly, there is little evidence that you are serious about this. Instead your approach is more obviously reminiscent of Der ewige Jude.

  49. justicedemon

    Mark

    It is generally understood that welfare dependency is the coming together of several factors, with ‘laziness’ generally being only a minor factor.

    It’s worth stressing at this point that we have a clear formal indicator of “work shyness”, both in the unemployed workforce generally and for recent immigrants in particular.

    It is meaningless to describe anyone as “work shy” unless they have turned down an offer of work or training. Any such refusal triggers a formal benefit reduction process (this is why I am was talking about modern slavery above) and, like any administrative procedure, that process leaves a paper trail in the form of official decisions and judicial reviews.

    In the case of recent immigrants the benefit concerned is called integration allowance, and there is a specially defined procedure for reducing this allowance if an immigrant declines work or training.

    The first Integration Act took effect in May 1999. In well over a decade I have yet to hear of a single case of reduced integration allowance, and there are no appeals at all on this subject in the archives of the Insurance Court. This is very strong circumstantial evidence supporting the conclusion that work shyness must be extremely rare among immigrants in Finland.

  50. Elven archer

    justicedemon, I see you just ignored in your usual style the most parts. Lots of words, no substance.

    Is there 20 % of foreigners of all the people in Finland in any given time? Simple yes or no will do.

    Why don’t you ask people blaming The Finns using numbers like the mentioned 80 %?

    Why don’t you see who claimed what. I didn’t make a claim. Why don’t you question the person who did (talk about that 80 % which I simply questioned)?

    And so on. I’m waiting.

  51. Elven archer

    “This is the specific mathematical error of not including visitors in the denominator.”

    It’s irrelevant in this case (he/she talked about 80 %). You should know there are always some measuring errors. It’s enough to be in the approriate margins which I easily did. There is nothing to put the percentage of the Finns under 80% and that is enough for my purposes. Ergo I proved that the claim about the Finns being so very hateful is invalid based on that statistics.

  52. Elven archer

    “Ergo I proved that the claim about the Finns being so very hateful is invalid based on that statistics.”

    I meant, ergo I proved that the claim based on that statistics about the Finns being so very hateful is invalid. But actually the statistics work also just fine like I said in the former sentence.

  53. justicedemon

    Elf

    Now you are simply incoherent.

    Try in Finnish if it’s easier. Denominator = nimittäjä (the lower part of the fraction, or the number that appears after the words “divided by”) and numerator = osoittaja (the upper part of the fraction, or the number that appears before the words “divided by”). Percentages are simply fractions expressed out of 100.

    Do you agree that if a population sample is described by a percentage (i.e. by a fraction), then that sample must be represented in both the numerator and the denominator?

    The percentage will be too high if the entire sample is not included in the denominator. This is what happens when you ascribe the offences of the foreign-born to immigrants alone, excluding visitors from the denominator.

    The 2008 HS article that you cited as a serious reference was grossly incorrect for this reason, ascribing the offences of foreign-born residents of the City of Helsinki AND the offences of foreign-born visitors to the City (both from abroad and from other parts of Finland) solely to the foreign born residents of Helsinki.

    That’s like ascribing all of those child rapes by Finnish tourists to the tiny and elderly Finnish immigrant community in Thailand.

    You have not yet even admitted this obvious mathematical error in the 2008 HS article. This is primary school stuff, Elf. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge that your flagship statistic is complete tosh? Is it because you have some emotional investment in the falsehood concerned, or is this another case that your hommaforum buddies will rearrange your facial features if you admit that their anti-jihadi propaganda is untrue?

  54. Elven archer

    “Yes, but a lack of labour or a diminishing labour force is also a limitation to growth or even sustainability.”

    The recent study busted this cliché. It’s a miracle the cliché lasted so long. There is no and sadly will be shortage of labour for many reasons. The work force has actually increased in size during the recent years while almost all of the big generation have retired already.

    “Työn tarjonnan kasvattaminen on siis välttämätöntä hyvinvointipalvelujen rahoittamiseksi. ”Työvoimapulaa” on sen sijaan turha odottaa, sitä ei koskaan tulla näkemään.”

    http://www.etk.fi/fi/service/kolumnit/1570/5_4_2012_kolumni

    Read the reasoning behind the link.

    • Mark

      Elven

      I have no problem with many of the arguments. I agree with this for example:

      Kansantalouden rakenteellinen työttömyys ei nimittäin riipu työvoiman määrästä (muutenhan työttömyys olisi korkeampi isoissa talouksissa kuin pienissä).

      But this fact works both ways, as I already demonstrated. An increase in 11,000 immigrants led to an increase of 10,000 immigrants in the labour force over a five year period.

      Jos nyt työvoima kasvaa vaikkapa kolmella prosentilla, esimerkiksi sitä kautta että eläkeikä nousee tai maahanmuuttajien määrä nousee, työttömyys voi hetkellisesti lisääntyä.Mutta koska rakenteellinen työttömyysaste on riippumaton työvoiman määrästä, työvoiman kasvu kolmella prosentilla johtaa ajan mittaan myös työllisyyden kasvuun suunnilleen kolmella prosentilla.

      That’s pretty much what we see over the long-term in Finland.

      Työn tarjonnan kasvattaminen on siis välttämätöntä hyvinvointipalvelujen rahoittamiseksi.

      My argument wasn’t that unemployment would go up in the future because of a declining dependency ratio, but rather that we would not be able to sustain services or pay the welfare bill. That’s a different argument, Elven.

  55. Elven archer

    justicedemon, I see you could not answer even my “yes or no” -question.

    Or understand the margins (the needed accuracy of the measurement) which in this case were easily big enough to not worry about tourists in this debate over 80 % and it’s meaning.

  56. Elven archer

    Is there 20 % of foreigners of all the people in Finland in any given time? Simple yes or no will do.

    Or do you have some emotional investment?

  57. Elven archer

    “The percentage will be too high” you go on and on and on even after I said yes, but the point is HOW MUCH too high: nothing to sweat about.

    If you can’t understand the concept “being accurate enough (the measuring error is small enough)” for the case, I give up. Actually I know you understand this just fine but you choose to ignore (not disagree but just ignore) it.

  58. Elven archer

    “This is a huge statement Elven, and basically, I cannot see your expertise in this area.”

    I don’t even care to show it, not really. To put much effort. Not in English and not in this blog. But that is hardly the point. You have the burden of proof. You are the one telling us take a leap of faith. I’d rather not. So it’s your job to paint a real and accurate picture showing those advantages outweighin disadvantages. Nobody yet has done that. Nobody in Europe. So good luck. There’s a lots of evidence of the contrary though and lots of people asking for it although there should be no need of that. The people doing this immigration thing have the burden of proof that they are doing the right thing and that they are doing it right.

    • Mark

      “This is a huge statement Elven, and basically, I cannot see your expertise in this area.”

      I don’t even care to show it, not really.

      Elven, I think you mistake quantity for quality.

      You have the burden of proof.

      What, to prove to you that the world at large is on a different page to you politically? Now that’s funny….

      So it’s your job to paint a real and accurate picture showing those advantages outweighin disadvantages

      Okay. Here it is. The British economy is amongst the most healthy in the world: unemployment is at a level almost identical to Finland, 7th highest GDP per capita of the G20, high life expectancy, etc. Now, GET THIS, the UK has nearly a 15% population of people of foreign origin. In other words, higher rates of ethnic diversity in the UK do not negatively affect its economic standing in the world. On the country, given the UK’s extensive links with all parts of the world, trade and economic activity are stimulated by diversity.

  59. BlandaUpp

    Elven archer

    You, just like army conscription dodging coward Alla-oho are yet to provide proof of this ghettoization. What institutes did studies? Where are the papers? No have no proof, just fear mongering.

    I state facts again: There are 3 times more Russians unemployed here than Somalis and an equal amount of unemployed Estonians as Somalis. FACT!

    If you were seriously concerned about crime and ghettoization, why don’t you and Allah-oho ever speak about Russians, Estonians and Swedes who do the overwhelming majority of crime done by foreigners here?

    Should we be concerned about Russia and Estonian ghettoiazation in Finland?

    In this regard, I will quote one of my favourite writers and the author of God is not Great, Christopher Hitchens:

    “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”.

    Now shoo.

  60. Elven archer

    “cherry picking”

    Hear you. I actually think that too. I would keep the numbers quite small. I was trying to emphasize the general spirit that it is not the immigration per se (when talked about reasonable numbers of people).

  61. Elven archer

    “Where are the papers? No have no proof, just fear mongering.”

    Read the news. It’s common knowledge now. I’ll not go hunting for the studies in my home, I don’t even know if I have access to those from home. Not everything is in Internet, a shame really. UTFG.

    “There are 3 times more Russians unemployed here than Somalis and an equal amount of unemployed Estonians as Somalis.”

    Is there more Russians in Finland too? 😉

    “why don’t you and Allah-oho ever speak…”

    A straw man. I certainly speak about them too. I also remember Halla-aho speaking of them too, I don’t know how often. Read the Scripta and be done with it and tell us.

    I’m worried about the Russian government using the growing minority of Russians as a political tool to put pressure.

    With Estonians it’s more difficult to control the flow of people thanks to this behemoth named EU.

  62. Mary Mekko

    Yes, but do the Somalis like to drink as much as the Finns? That is the question!

    All that alcohol costs money.

    Isn’t the East of Helsinki, the end of the Metro past Roihuvuori, called ITA KESKUS? I think that is your ghetto in the making, if one means a section of a larger city which is self-secluded by race or ethnicity. A good example in San Francisco is Chinatown, a very large and poor ghetto, practically one family per room, yet the top performing kids in the schools. The parents are almost all employed, due to the Tong system of controlling people by their point of origin and family name when arriving from China.

    Poverty, my friends, doesn’t equal violence, mental illness and poor performance in language acquisition and school. It’s the culture that demands from its people a certain level. If the culture doesn’t expect much, no other outside culture can effect it. The change has to come from within. Are the Somalians really becoming introverted and studious through contact with the Finns? I doubt it. Finns will be changed by outsiders’ gregariousness, cuisine and gender customs.

    Well, from a Somalian’s point of view, she or he is out of the hell of their homeland, eating and sleeping on someone else’s dime. What could be better? And their kids get schooling, free meals and medical attention, along with the parents’ housing…. not bad after living in tents and herding goats, or the slavery of the women hauling water on their heads… yes, speaking of slavery, isn’t Africa still rife with it? Women of Africa, name your condition!

  63. Väinämöinen

    BlandaUpp

    ”I state facts again: There are 3 times more Russians unemployed here than Somalis and an equal amount of unemployed Estonians as Somalis. FACT!”

    BlandaUpp, sleep more do less hate speech and you might stay sane.

    Somalis, Iraks, Afghans and former Sudanes are those who work the least, costing the most to the Finnish society.

  64. justicedemon

    Elf

    you go on and on and on even after I said yes

    Where did you say “yes” and to what? Show us.

    Margins of error are meaningless if the percentages are already distorted by failing to include the samples correctly in both numerator and denominator.

    You don’t do an analysis of error margins when you dropped the test tube and had to sweep up most of the sample from the laboratory floor, or when you used the wrong chemical formula to reckon molecular weights. First you must get your empirical and mathematical methodology in order. Only then can you reckon discrepancies.

  65. Toni

    Mark, you quoted the source: “Ja siksi työvoiman määrän kasvu johtaa aina työllisyyden kasvuun vaikka maassa olisikin työttömyyttä. ”

    Sure. But that growth is financed with “velkarahalla”. More you have people without work, more you need people working to handle their needs.

  66. Toni

    So, when we get 100 immigrants (=työvoiman kasvu) here we may need 10 people to feed them, 10 people to help them, 10 people as interptreters, 10 police investigating their crimes, 10 lawyer to defend them in court, and 10 social workers to help them fill the papers to get money from “taikaseinä”.
    But who is paying all that? 😉

    100 “workers” cause work for 60 people.. That is why they can say: “Ja siksi työvoiman määrän kasvu johtaa aina työllisyyden kasvuun vaikka maassa olisikin työttömyyttä. ”

    And that is why “Velkakello”…

  67. Mark

    Toni

    This is ficticious economics. All citizens make use of other people’s labour throughout their life, either as a service provided by the state or through their own finance.

    Structural unemployment remains fairly steady, regardless of population size. That is the key point of the article. So the ‘who pays’ question is largely irrelevant.

  68. Toni

    Mark. “All citizens make use of other people’s labour throughout their life, either as a service provided by the state or through their own finance.”

    Yes. But some citizens never work, so they provide nothing and serve no-one. All citizens need service but not all citizens want to serve others. More we have citizens wanting service but not willing to serve, more we need to grow “Velkakello”.

    • Mark

      Toni

      And do you class full time mothers in that ‘never worked’ group? 1 in 4 Finnish youngsters are out of work. Why don’t you try to figure out that puzzle, because it is far bigger in scale and for more expensive to Finnish taxpayers.

  69. Toni

    Mark: “And do you class full time mothers in that ‘never worked’ group?”

    No. Full time mothering is serving others.

    Mark: “1 in 4 Finnish youngsters are out of work.”

    Yes. They have no job. Still the covernement is talking about “työvoimapula”…

    Mark: “Why don’t you try to figure out that puzzle, because it is far bigger in scale and for more expensive to Finnish taxpayers.”

    Covernment should focus on finding a job for youngsters instead of focusing importing more people here who don’t even want to work. Many youngsters have short time jobs or part time jobs supported by government. Emplyees don’t want to hire them as full time workers because they don’t have to… they don’t need them. Still they wish more cheaper labour that Kokoomus is organizing as immigrants…

    Right way: Create more jobs and immigrants will come.
    Wrong way: Bring more immigrants, we need them (actually we don’t need them. Employers just want cheap labour).

    • Mark

      Toni

      Mark: “And do you class full time mothers in that ‘never worked’ group?”

      No. Full time mothering is serving others.

      Good, take that into account next time you decide to quote the employment rates for young immigrants with families. Not saying you do, but just in case you are tempted.

      Wrong way: Bring more immigrants, we need them (actually we don’t need them. Employers just want cheap labour).

      No-one is ‘bringing’ immigrants, Toni. They arrive. All employers want cheap labour. In fact, that goes a long way to making any country competitive. As it’s a global market, it drives wages down regardless. Also, immigrants don’t set wage levels. So don’t blame them. What have you got against immigrants that you don’t want them in Finland? Do you also not want tourists? Or are tourists and visitors okay as long as they stay in their hotels?

  70. Toni

    >Mark: No-one is ‘bringing’ immigrants, Toni. They arrive.

    Not true. By importing I mean flying them here for free and supporting everything… That is not arriving but bringing.

    >Mark: “What have you got against immigrants that you don’t want them in Finland?”

    ??. Why do you think I don’t want immigrants in Finland? Do you still think Sisu don’t want immigrants? I tought this was already clear that they do not oppose immigrants and they do not oppose mixing races.

    So, stop manipulating, please.

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