Full assimilation in Bread and Chocolate

by , under All categories, Enrique

This is one of my favorite movies called Bread and Chocolate/Pane e cioccolata (1973) starring Nino Manfredi, who is an Italian immigrant that is trying to integrate at all costs into Swiss society. He even dyed his hair in order to fit in. Then there is a football match in a bar between England and Italy. The Swiss clients are watching the game as is Manfredi. Everything seems to be going well until Italy scores a goal…

As one can see back in the early 1970s, Italian laborers were not in good standing in some parts of Europe. However, the discrimination that some groups face today is many times worse. Could they walk in a bar and watch a football game with the locals?

  1. Tony Garcia

    “However, the discrimination that some groups face today is many times worse. ”

    They don’t have to, the groups themselves are the only responsible for the problems they face. Our society allows us to take many paths, it’s up to us to take the right one…

  2. xyz

    They don’t have to, the groups themselves are the only responsible for the problems they face. Our society allows us to take many paths, it’s up to us to take the right one…
    -And the only right one is of course what you believe? 🙂

  3. Klay_Immigrant

    If this clip is meant to be an example of racism, discrimination, exclusion or whatever other term you (Enrique) deem necessary to describe it then you need to grow some balls and stop being so sensitive. God help what would happen if your wife or girlfriend ever cheated on you, suicide would be on the menu I think.

    • Enrique

      –God help what would happen if your wife or girlfriend ever cheated on you, suicide would be on the menu I think.

      What should I say about this and what do you think others debating here think about this comment of yours? JusticeDemon blew your argument out of the window and you were in pretty bad shape defending your opinions with me. Is this your answer when you lose ground and start getting personal? Of course that is pretty easy to do when you are hiding in anonymity. Maybe that is the reason why you lack the skills to understand immigration and how it works.

  4. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique enlighten me with which specific arguments blew me ‘out of the window’, put me in a ‘pretty bad shape’ and made me to ‘lose ground’. I’m intrigued, I’m always willing to defend my arguments with evidence, data, and logic something that is alien to you.

    • Enrique

      If you cannot control your comments by getting personal, I suggest you move on. You enjoy being with us because you learn new things. But when you get personal you lose control of your arguments, which run astray. You can dream about the far-right in Europe but I still think you live in the wrong country. Move to Denmark, or Holland. Why stay in a liberal country and whine until you are blue in the face?

  5. Klay_Immigrant

    I understand full well how immigration works, how it works badly concerning certain immigrant groups. Isn’t if funny how as time goes on Right-wing parties are getting more popular even in countries thought of as being liberal such as The Netherlands and Sweden. Surely if multiculturalism was a dream to humanity the opposite would happen.

    Also why do borders exist? Why not a open freedom of movement policy for every nationality? EU immigrants groups aren’t a threat so are allowed this priviledge and no problems have arisen. You do the same for developing countries and you would see the consequences. European countries would be overwhelmed and the welfare system would collapse.

    But ofcourse multiculturalists don’t think about these issues and political trends that are occurring. All they care about is turning areas of urban Europe into downtown Baghdad or Mogadishu AT ALL COSTS.

  6. xyz

    Why do you always think that people from developing countries want to exploit the welfare system? You think nobody of them wants to work?

    • Enrique

      xyz, some like to step on other groups to climb a few small levels on the social totem pole. Those that do never can rise high enough because the parameters they use won’t allow them to.

  7. Tony Garcia

    “Move to Denmark, or Holland.”

    Klay, you should consider Finland. As I said, you’d be far more welcomed there than many here wants you to believe.

  8. Klay_Immigrant

    Thanks Tony, I take part in this blog because I’m interested in settling in Finland when I finish my education which I have one more year left. I have no desire to stay in the U.K. for the reasons I have mentioned.

    Enrique I don’t understand you. When I ‘whine’ you tell me to move to another country but if I said the same to a immigrant on welfare in Finland who whines to do the same somehow that’s wrong. Please explain this logic to me. Remember also Enrique my presence here is not a burden to the tax payer or economy as I pay for my education with high tuition fees, it’s not free like Finland. So I have the right to complain as much as I want as nothing is given free to me by the country I’m complaining about. Immigrants who benefit from welfare should learn to be more gratful and show some gratitude to their host not throw insults.

    But your right why stay in a country when your not happy, something you should also tell unhappy immigrants in Finland.

    • Enrique

      –But your right why stay in a country when your not happy, something you should also tell unhappy immigrants in Finland.

      Nah, what I would tell them is to get involved and respect the laws of the land, which give you that right. Contrarily, your values are outside the laws because they preach inequality and exclusion. That is the big difference between you and some people in this blog.

  9. Tony Garcia

    If I had a cent every time I saw multiculturalists outraged because an immigrant complain about something and a skin-head told him to move away.

    That’s the problem in the multicultural world, everything depends on who. Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others.

  10. Klay_Immigrant

    Yeah Tony the George Orwell quote is a unwritten rule in liberal policy hence why positive discrimination exists. Their arguments are not consistent for EVERYONE. It’s a shame.

    Multiculturalists have that trump racism card in their pocket, and it’s easy to accuse someone of being racist but much harder to show those accusations are wrong and even when that has been disproved the stigma is still attached to you. A case of guilty until proven innocent and still not perfect afterwards.

  11. Tony Garcia

    “hence why positive discrimination exists”

    From all the damage the left has done to our society one with is quite remarkable is the damage to the English language. They can use together two opposite adjectives and yet feel all fluff about it.

  12. xyz

    Klay, good to know that people can complain if they paid tuition fee. I also paid tuition fee so you are not alone. Do you think they will accept your UK degree? I got my degree from Australia.

  13. Tony Garcia

    My I got from Loompaland, I was invited to go there by some Oompa-Loompa friends. Do you guys think Finnish companies will accept it?

    • Enrique

      –My I got from Loompaland, I was invited to go there by some Oompa-Loompa friends. Do you guys think Finnish companies will accept it?

      Maybe you should accept the invitation and stay there, “Tony.”

  14. Tony Garcia

    “Maybe you should accept the invitation and stay there, “Tony.”

    Yep, maybe. The last thing you need is an adapted, integrated and successful immigrant who loves Finland and insist in bring in inconvenient facts. Easer to deal with baseless insults, isn’t ?

  15. xyz

    I’m, as Enrique said before, and “invisible” immigrant, and that was the reason I have succeeded. Well I made myself “invisible”, unfortunately many immigrants who complain about “racism” and “discrimination” do nothing but make themselves “visible”.
    -This was an old comment from Tony. I was wondering how do you manage to be invisible in Finland if you don’t speak Finnish?

    • Enrique

      -This was an old comment from Tony. I was wondering how do you manage to be invisible in Finland if you don’t speak Finnish?

      I don’t know why it is such a sin to exercise one’s democratic rights in a country? Certainly one can live hoping on people’s good intentions… But that is not how the real world works. That is why gaining a voice and excercising one’s rights in a country are the first crucial steps in integration.

      Klay you must be pretty young.Maybe that is why you make some off the cuff comments like who has the right to speak out. One of the reasons why I moved to Finland from the United States was to ESCAPE that type of country; ie I have more rights than you because I have money. Lesson one in Finnish cultural adaption: our society is modeled on equality even though all societies are far from perfect. Don’t make such a comment (I have more rights because I have money) in Finland because you are going to piss off a lot of people.

  16. Tiwaz

    -“One of the reasons why I moved to Finland from the United States was to ESCAPE that type of country; ie I have more rights than you because I have money. Lesson one in Finnish cultural adaption: our society is modeled on equality even though all societies are far from perfect. Don’t make such a comment (I have more rights because I have money) in Finland because you are going to piss off a lot of people.”

    So why do you keep whining and demanding INEQUALITY?

    You demand that immigrants should not face EXACT same requirements as Finns.
    And don’t deny that you do not. You whine unemployment levels repeatedly, but ignore it when it is pointed out that it is because certain immigrant groups have little to no useful skills to offer to employers.

    But you do not bother to grasp that. For you immigrant not being employed is racism. Because every immigrant MUST be competent in your mind.

    Wake up! Finland is high education nation with high quality education available for all. Is it any wonder that our requirements for employers are also high?

    And in nation where around 95% of people speak one language, failure to speak that language is HUGE handicap. And where 95% of people share same cultural norms, it is huge handicap not to be able to act properly in context of THAT culture. (because I will not leave my money in a store where service is rude, and only measuring stick I, or most Finns, measure rudeness is one stamped with “Culture of Finland”)

  17. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, I see you love to talk about rights but rarely talk about consequences. We do have rights but nothing comes for free, the question you probably hate the most is – is it wise to do?

    We’ve got plenty of rights indeed, we have the right to be drunk all day, not to go to work, to run away from our families, to spend all our wages on gambling, go outside wearing only a t-shirt during the winter, etc. All our constitutional rights, you can’t deny it, however one must ask – is that wise to do?

    The same goes to the Muslims father who insist his daughter must go to school dressing like a clown just to rubber on everyone’s face how different they are. This is they right and I don’t deny it, however they will be humiliated, laughed at, seeing as weirdoes, and be left alone to live their miserable life.

    I, in particularly, couldn’t care less, however we must notice that the more unwelcomed and futureless they feel, the more they will feel compelled to find greener pastures elsewhere…

    • Enrique

      –The same goes to the Muslims father who insist his daughter must go to school dressing like a clown just…

      Sorry, Tony, but I don’t see it that way. And I must tell you that your comparison of the daughter is highly insulting. This suggests that you are the source of the problem. Just tell me where are your values are enshrined in European law? Where does it state we must exclude others? In North Korea? Iran? Your problem is a racial issue. You despise Muslims and that is what obfuscates your view of things. But the truth is that the modern Europe we live in today is not a faint image of the 1950s or earlier. That is history. Accept it. If I want to express myself in society that is my right. Or are you going to establish a police force that will tell people how to dress?

      You state that you don’t care but I think you do. Get over it, man. Europe is diverse. Europeans are ALSO Muslims.

  18. Tony Garcia

    “Your problem is a racial issue”

    Sorry but I won’t answer to that, have done it enough. Now Islam is a race, interesting isn’t?

    “And I must tell you that your comparison of the daughter is highly insulting.”

    It’s and I take it back, try to make a point and didn’t work the way I wanted. Be on the right means you have no problem saying sorry when you are wrong.

    Anyway…

    But my point is still valid. We don’t need a police force my friend, we have the society doing just that. You behave according and you are in, you don’t… Well… Good luck with that.

    You keep saying about your rights, but no one is denying it. You do whatever your rights tells you to, but better be ready for the consequences. As i said, I couldn’t care less…

    I have a good life, so do you, and so do many adapted immigrants, can you say the same about those Muslims? You want they to keep doing what they want to and the Finnish society to change and start to accept them. Honestly? I wouldn’t hold my breath.

  19. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony your point is exactly spot on but the example you used made it too easy for Enrique to dismiss it as racial or religious prejudice. So let me use this example instead.

    An ethnic Finn called Jussi decides today he wants to dress in a banana costume to go into Helsinki in the middle of the day. I mean there’s nothing wrong in that, it’s his right and he is harming no one. But in the streets and bus people stare, laugh, and ridicule him. Whenever he approaches to ask for directions people are weary and some refuse to talk to him. He goes shopping but some shops are slow to help and serve him. In the end he gives up, goes home and wonders why everyone picked on him, excluded him and didn’t treat him equally. Again he knows it his right to dress the way he did, no laws have been broken.

    My point is pretty clear, just because it’s your right to do something that doesn’t mean it’s always the wisest decision. People would probably consider Jussi to either be drunk, mentally ill or in some kind of hidden camera TV show. They wouldn’t have any problems with Jussi if he dressed normally.

    The moral of the story is if you stand out like a sore thumb for whatever reason even if it’s within your rights it’s unrealistic and naive to expect to be treated equally.

    • Enrique

      –My point is pretty clear, just because it’s your right to do something that doesn’t mean it’s always the wisest decision.

      Read the laws of the land and then come back with an intelligent question.

  20. xyz

    Maybe you are just not used to Banana Costumes. Maybe you should travel to Banana Costume Land and live there for a while. You will get used to it and not care anymore.

  21. Tony Garcia

    “Read the laws of the land and then come back with an intelligent question.”

    Read what he said…

    “My point is pretty clear, just because it’s your right (or legal) to do something that doesn’t mean it’s always the wisest decision.”

    • Enrique

      –“My point is pretty clear, just because it’s your right (or legal) to do something that doesn’t mean it’s always the wisest decision.”

      Do you mean dressing in a banana suit? Honestly, how many people do you see working in a private company with a “banana suit?” In the public sector ther are some improvements.

  22. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, please, don’t be silly, what we are talking here is that something legal is not necessary wise. Muslims can do many things but, most of what they do just piss everyone around them off, and when you are moving to another country, piss the locals off is not very wise at all.

    You say I have problem with Muslims, well I do, and so most Europeans, just look around you, wherever they make any polls asking locals about Muslims the answer is always the same – don’t like them. Even the so pluralist and tolerant America is just having enough of these people.

    When you see one single group being hated by some many people from so different countries around the world, well… There is an elephant in the room, my friend.

  23. JusticeDemon

    To all defenders of boorish behaviour towards visible minorities.

    I suppose you also think it’s OK to stare, laugh at and ridicule disfigured and disabled people in the street as well. Shouldn’t they also avoid being seen in public? If not, then what, precisely, is the difference? You are excluding a person for something that is part of their identity.

    This kind of pressure to conform only illustrates the immaturity of those who practice it, which is why it is particularly common at school. Playground bullying may target any kind of minority, from having a different religion to being unusually talented at mathematics.

    You really should be ashamed of yourselves for defending such conduct. How would you deal with a complaint from another parent if your child behaved like this towards minority children at school? Would you set an example of good conduct to your child, or simply regard this as natural behaviour and the fault of the minority child for not concealing his or her identity?

  24. Tiwaz

    -“I suppose you also think it’s OK to stare, laugh at and ridicule disfigured and disabled people in the street as well. Shouldn’t they also avoid being seen in public? If not, then what, precisely, is the difference? You are excluding a person for something that is part of their identity.”

    Can disfigured or disabled person alter their appearance and behavior?

    No.

    Can immigrant try to fit into the crowd?

    Yes.

    What it requires is immigrant being prepared to integrate into society as it is. If you insist in not fitting in, do not expect to be included in the list of invited ones.

    No law requires me to like everyone, nor do I expect my children to like everyone.

    This is again stupidity of multiculturalists, either you embrace foreigners and their ways or you are racist who hates them. I do not go out of my way to make their life miserable, but I do not give them ANY slack either.

    • Enrique

      –What it requires is immigrant being prepared to integrate into society as it is. If you insist in not fitting in, do not expect to be included in the list of invited ones.

      Considering that you give out this opinions of others anonymously and don’t have the courage to do so with your own name, puts into question your views. Did you ever think that you might have problems integrating into society? Moreover, I think your view of immigrants is only to cover-up your fears of others that can outwork and outsource you.

  25. Tony Garcia

    Thanks Twiaz, I was wondering if I should have replied but comparing a disable person to a Muslim making a political statement is so pathetic that I decided just don’t bother with it.

    • Enrique

      Tony, could you enlighten us, especially me, why you despise all the members of a certain religious group. Where does your loathing originate? If you brought this out maybe we could understand where you are coming from. Thank you.

    • Enrique

      Was JusticeDemons’ string “pathetic?” Not at all. I think he posed a valid question that you did not want to answer. He did not compare a disabled person to a “Muslim making a political statement.” He was speaking of Otherness and how you relate to that.

  26. xyz

    For Tiwaz and Tony:

    “If you suffer from xenophobia, you may feel uncomfortable around people who fall into a different group than your own. You might go out of your way to avoid particular neighborhoods. You may discount the possibility of friendship with certain people solely due to their skin color, mode of dress or other external factors. You might have trouble taking a supervisor seriously or connecting with a teammate who does not fall into your particular racial, cultural or religious group.

    Combating Xenophobia

    Many people who suffer from xenophobia have lived relatively sheltered lives with little exposure to those who are different from them. Fear of the unknown is one of the most powerful fears of all. If you have not been exposed to other races, cultures and religions, conquering your xenophobia may be as simple as gaining more experience. Traveling the world, or even spending a week at a youth hostel in a nearby city, might go a long way toward helping you face your fears.

    If your xenophobia is more pervasive, recurring despite exposure to a wide variety of cultures, then professional treatment might be in order. Choose a therapist that is open-minded and interested in working with you for a long period of time. Unlike many phobias, xenophobia is often deeply rooted in a combination of upbringing, religious teachings and previous experiences. Successfully combating xenophobia generally means confronting numerous aspects of the personality and learning new ways of experiencing the world.”

    http://phobias.about.com/od/phobiaslist/a/xenophobia.htm

  27. Tony Garcia

    How do I start?

    Women discrimination, underage marriage, female genital mutilation, ease use of violence, honor killing, forced marriage, terrorism, demand for appeasement, race card, intolerance of our traditions and celebrations, hatred towards Jews and Christians, intolerance of gays, demand for Sharia, intolerance of freedom of speech, etc…

    Ps: Only me? How about the millions around the world who just think the very same?

    • Enrique

      So, Tony, by your definition, ALL members of a group have this problem, right? Although I do not deny many human right issues in many countries, I don’t think you are really interested in helping them. Instead you preach hatred and intolerance. Moreover, I could list a bunch of issues in our culture that would be equally offensive to other groups. For one, you speak of intolerance but then you forget your history and current events. You claim to be from Brazil, but forget how much the “western ways” and US influence in the region encouraged human rights violations which I think you are aware of. Your hate-list is too simple. It is only a list with grievances but has no solution except for one matter that I believe puts you and others in the same league as those fanatics you loathe: intolerance.

      Another matter I consider highly offensive is the tone of your arguments. And on top of us people should respect your values? No, “Tony,” the issue runs much deeper. You don’t care about these things you claim to be defending because of the tone of your arguments. That is why those ultra-right wing parties that claim to be fighting for is a sham that hides something more underhanded and sinister.

  28. JusticeDemon

    The blithe assumption that individuals can freely change their religion and other aspects of their identity displays profound ignorance. The insistence that they should attempt to conceal that identity in order to avoid offending xenophobes is the very worst form of antisocial conduct.

    A contributor to another online discussion a couple of months ago hit the nail squarely on the head with the following comment:

    I can imagine somebody, somewhere reading this and concluding:
    “Jews like this are OK. They hide their heritage and fit in properly, so that we never have to know. The problem with Muslims is that they are too open about being different, so we have to take notice and take action.”

    It is inhuman that some people want others to feel ashamed as penance for having been born into a different religion / ethnicity / whatever, rather than feel ashamed themselves.

  29. JusticeDemon

    Tony,

    What is your position on Christians, Hindus and Agnostics, some of whom discriminate against women etc. etc.? Do you despise these people similarly en bloc?

    It occurs to me that some Finns get blind drunk and kill people with knives, but this does not mean that I panic when I hear people speaking Finnish in a public place. Do you think I should? If not, then why should I worry when I hear other people speaking Arabic?

  30. Tony Garcia

    “Was JusticeDemons’ string pathetic. Not at all. I think he posed a valid question that you did not want to answer. ”

    Yep, it is pathetic and it was well answered.

  31. Tony Garcia

    “So, Tony, by your definition, ALL members of a group have this problem, right? ”

    Nop, by many peoples definition, including ex-Muslims and most fire-breading Imams , those practices are intrinsic parts of the Islamic religion/culture.

    Many other religions have some problems, of course, Catholics discriminated against gays, some Christians cults force marriage and preach women inferiority, etc. But Islam is the only religion in witch all those practices are present. Furthermore Islam is the only religion witch is allowed to practice just about everything they want, and receive all appeasement they demand, in the name of community cohesion.

    “I don’t think you are really interested in helping them.”

    Who ever said I was?

    “Your hate-list is too simple.”

    Sorry but this ease-dismiss tactic just don’t work anymore. Every time you use the word “hate”, it just means that I’m right on target.

    • Enrique

      Tony, I use hate just like racism and xenophobia. It is calling a spade a spade. I don’t think we have to pussy foot with PC (political correctness). Right on target? Yep, right on target to see what motivates your discourse; ie hatred, intolerance, xenophobia and racism (even though we are speaking of a religion).

  32. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘I suppose you also think it’s OK to stare, laugh at and ridicule disfigured and disabled people in the street as well.’

    This comparison as Tony has pointed out is ridiculous. Disfigured and disabled people are either born as such or due to an unfortunate accident. No decisions were ever taken. They don’t have a choice to be like everyone else. The same cannot be said for outward bold religious beings.

  33. Tony Garcia

    To be honest, more than ridiculous, it’s highly offensive.

    Ask an amputee boy if he wants his legs back. As a Muslim father is the wants to stop using his daughter as political tool.

  34. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘The insistence that they should attempt to conceal that identity in order to avoid offending xenophobes is the very worst form of antisocial conduct.’

    All I am saying is that if you choose not to blend into society you are giving people more opportunity and excuses to target you. That doesn’t mean that their actions against you are correct.

    It’s like leaving your house door wide open in the middle of the night, you are more likely to get burgled or walking around with large sum of money in view of everyone, you more prone to robbery. The pointing out of these rather simple observations doesn’t condone the action of burglary or robbery but you have to take some fault for being more susceptible which could have been more easily aviodable.

    • Enrique

      –All I am saying is that if you choose not to blend into society you are giving people more opportunity and excuses to target you. That doesn’t mean that their actions against you are correct.

      There are many ways to integrate. If this worked for you, then fine. However, your model is not the only one. And I remind you once again: read the laws. You seem not to have much idea about our modern way of life because you may be too busy blending in. And do you in the end?..

  35. Tony Garcia

    Taking in consideration that they way we have done things for centuries has make this continent a place where thousands are desperate trying to come and very few are barely interested to leave, I will stick to Sameness, just in case…

  36. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘It occurs to me that some Finns get blind drunk and kill people with knives,’

    Ok justiceDemon is this crime endorsed in Finnish laws, do children get taught to behave that way in school, and do people of authority in gatherings preach that behaviour is correct? I think not, however this occurs for barbaric Islamic practises. So again do not compare the two, frankly it’s absurd.

  37. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘The issue, Klay, is your view of Otherness.’

    Any sensible person would not group together disabled or disfigured people with religious fanatics as an example of ‘otherness’. They are two completely different groups and I have already explained why.

    One of the hallmarks of the Welfare states in the Nordic countries as opposed to extreme capitalist states is to help the weak which I fully agree with even if I have to pay more tax in order to achieve that. Disabled and disfigured people fall into that category and they should be given extra help to live their lives as normally as possible.

    Religious fanatics are not in that category, Muslim women do not have a veil permanently attached to their face, but an amputated man has permanently lost his limb. That’s the difference.

    • Enrique

      –Any sensible person would not group together disabled or disfigured people with religious fanatics as an example of ‘otherness’. They are two completely different groups and I have already explained why.

      Here is where your argument goes to pots. Did I say “religious fanatics?” No. You said it. As I mentioned, you are too young and inexperienced in life to deal with our modern society. You claim to have travelled in many cultures but instead of making you more understanding of these, you have been turned off by them. That is your issue and problem.

  38. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    If you understood anything about religion and culture, then you would realise how silly it is to regard these as matters of individual choice. Do you think you could choose to change your most fundamental values? This only shows that you have never thought about the matter. You can rebuild an aircraft in flight, but you cannot replace the aircraft with another in flight. Equally, you can convert to Shinto and begin a process of integrating your values with those of traditional Japanese culture, but this will not turn you into a Samurai overnight. Read a bit of comparative religion and cultural anthropology. Start with the philosophical question: “Can I choose what I believe?” Then get back to us with a more mature analysis.

    All I am saying is that if you choose not to blend into society you are giving people more opportunity and excuses to target you. That doesn’t mean that their actions against you are correct.

    This is the pub doorman (or racist employer) argument that seeks to exclude minorities on the grounds that their presence in the pub (or firm) will encourage “regrettable” bad behaviour by other customers (or employees). Your lawyer would advise you not to take this line when your case comes up in court.

    If you agree that social exclusion is wrong, what steps are you taking/will you take to ensure that your children do not practice it?

    • Enrique

      And to add to what JusticeDemon said, I believe one of the most important matters in life is ACCEPTING who you are. What you are suggesting, however, is the total opposite: we do not have the right to be who we are. If you are an immigrant, or son of an immigrant who denies who he is, it is a bit like being a closet homosexual. You will always be adapting to everyone else and become a half-content human. No matter how much you try, you can never forget who you are. You may for a few years in your life but you will always return to whom you are. In the process, you will never excel but be mediocre in whatever you do.

  39. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Which particular “barbaric Islamic practice” is endorsed in Islamic law or taught at school? Could we have some specific references, please?

    As for the preachings of “people in authority”, do you mean ?

    • Enrique

      Why do you think I wouldn’t accept who Finns are? In a culturally diverse society we learn to accept others. Acceptance doesn’t mean giving up or denying who you are.

    • Enrique

      —Is that so klay? May I ask if the effort was worth of it?

      As I mentioned, everyone has his/her own method. It is a personal matter. However, the question bothers me. It assumes that the majority don’t have to do anything to adapt to others. All they have to do is sit on their behinds and let others do the adapting. Do things work that way effectively?

  40. Tony Garcia

    “Why do you think I wouldn’t accept who Finns are? In a culturally diverse society we learn to accept others.”

    Very well then, I’ll keep this in mind for future reference…

  41. Tony Garcia

    “However, the question bothers me.”

    We know that already.

    “It assumes that the majority don’t have to do anything to adapt to others.”

    Yep, that’s exactly what it is.

    “Do things work that way effectively?”

    How many times we have this question answered here?

    • Enrique

      –“It assumes that the majority don’t have to do anything to adapt to others.”

      I don’t understand why we are having this discussion if the law and my moral right as a human being/member of society offers me that right. There is no problem in diversity until you see it that way. You are making a big deal about it, which means it is a “problem.” I would also contest your claim that immigrants don’t respect the country they move to. Respect does not mean throwing away who I am. Again that magic word: acceptance. Moreover, those that have a strong sense of who they are have an easier time adapting to a new culture. I would bet that most people that are in far-right groups and are intolerant of the Other we may be looking at low self-esteem.

  42. Tony Garcia

    Adaptation doesn’t bring social-reengineering, so if you want to promote it the last thing you need is adapted immigrants telling how adaptation has helped them to succeed.

  43. Tony Garcia

    “… if the law…offers me that right”

    Again legal versus wise. You can be whatever you want, but, good luck with that.

    “You are making a big deal about it.”

    I’m just showing with path adaptation/multiculturalism provides better result. Again legal/wise. This bothers you because you know the answer to that.

    ” I would also contest your claim that immigrants don’t respect the country they move to. ”

    When did I ever said that? Many do, and guess what? Exactly, they succeed…

    “Again that magic word: acceptance.”

    Magic only exist in fairy-tales…

    “Moreover, those that have a strong sense of who they are have an easier time adapting to a new culture.”

    More than once you said that some can and same cannot adapt. I have always agreed 100% with you on that. That’s why Finland need a wise immigration policy, we can’t allow social exclusion and marginalization to set foot in Finland.

    • Enrique

      Far-right groups or people who have a difficulty accepting others probably have low-self-esteem issues. They fear that if they accept others, they will be devoured by them. Things don’t work that way especially in our societies.

      Magic also exists in the real word: I will rephrase my comment – acceptance is first and foremost.

  44. Tony Garcia

    And I’ll rephrase my – good luck with that…

    PS. “Far-right groups” – nice new tactic, good to see that you are trying just about everything you can.

    • Enrique

      –PS. “Far-right groups” – nice new tactic, good to see that you are trying just about everything you can.

      It’s not a new tactic. You should be more grateful for debating these matters which are not part of our values. Nowhere in the law nor at school do we teach, or aim to teach, inteolerance.

      My issue with intlerance is that I heard the same excuses to abuse human rights in Argentina. When far-right groups want to water down civil rights, it is a prelude for more restrictions. Get it? That is how it has been done many times over. Far-right groups and all types of fanatics are not defending anything. They are taking away rights.

  45. Tony Garcia

    The law allow us (immigrants) to take two paths, we can adapt or you can demand to be accepted. Both are legal and it’s up to us to decide what to do. I’m just trying to establish here with path provide better result for immigrants. Sorry to say but discuss this IS part of our values.

    • Enrique

      –I’m just trying to establish here with path provide better result for immigrants.

      Yes, that is your choice. Just like the Brits and Finns in Spain. They have a right to not learn the local langauge ever and live in their cultural enclaves. Is it ok for them but not ok for other groups? Watch out for those double standards…

    • Enrique

      And just one more point… Melting into the local culture does not work for everyone because a culture may not accept you. The idea that everyone can adapt if he throws away one’s culture is wishful thinking. For some it may work while for others it does not. Society offers choices. We can choose.

  46. Tony Garcia

    “…Brits and Finns in Spain. They have a right to not learn the local langauge…”

    “Society offers choices. We can choose.”

    That’s exactly where I base my point, choice. However some choices are better them others.

  47. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘And I remind you once again: read the laws.’

    Even after numerous explainations Enrique still cannot grasp the simple concept that if something is legal that by itself doesn’t make it wise or rational.

    -‘As I mentioned, you are too young and inexperienced in life to deal with our modern society.’

    Enrique tell me how old I am or what my experiences are? You can’t because you don’t know so before you start throwing personal insults at least know some facts first. It sums up your arguments really, make bold statements without having any evidence to back it up.

    -‘I would also contest your claim that immigrants don’t respect the country they move to.’

    If an immigrant moves to a country and has no intention of learning the culture, customs or language then that shows no respect even if it’s their right to do so.

    -‘Yes, that is your choice. Just like the Brits and Finns in Spain. They have a right to not learn the local langauge ever and live in their cultural enclaves.’

    I don’t know about Finns but the Brits in Spain are not a group to be looked up to or emulated. I would go as far as to say that the majority are viewed as a laughing stock here in Britain as they usually have poor education and social standing. Reality and drama TV programs have been made making fun of them. Their idea of being cutural or integrating is eating paella (pronounced wrongly on their part) in a karaoke bar.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique tell me how old I am or what my experiences are?

      By the way you confront some issues you reveal a young person who has not gotten knocked around enough to be humbled by life. One of the most precious things in my opinion is empathy for others.

  48. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Did you adapt or demand your rights? Did it work?’

    Tony as you know I’m a visible minority (non-white) so everywhere I go in Europe people know immediately I’m a foreigner or have foreign background. The reason I think assimilation is the best method is that not only has it worked for me in numerous countries but I have seen and witnessed first hand people who I know in similar positions as myself take the multiculturalists route and either fail or integrate much slower.

    Sometimes I wonder about the priorties of multiculturalists. A lot seem more concerned about finding out who’s racist or not in their minds in the streets and confronting them causing a scene than actually learning the language.

    Have I been told to ‘go home’, called a ‘paki’,’darkie’ or ‘terrorist’. Sure, but these have occurred in rare instances and are isolated cases. It doesn’t bother me because I already know these kind of people are in the extreme minority and that their collective IQ are less than a gorillas so why should I care what these people think. If someone is so weak willed and sensitive to let people like that hold them back then it’s in their best interests to never emigrate in the first place.

    • Enrique

      –Sometimes I wonder about the priorties of multiculturalists.

      Good for you, Klay. But I don’t understand what you mean by “multiculturalist.” Do you mean it is a person that follows the laws of England concerning ethnic diversity? Please explain.

    • Enrique

      If you have conftonted such attitudes like racism, the way you deal with them is fine for you. However, you should not go around bashing another group as a means to fit in. If you say who you are, no matter how much bashing you do, some people will always look down on you. Do you have “the balls” to let go of your loathing of a whole group and face society as a man? Now that takes real courage.

  49. Tony Garcia

    Thanks Klay, nice answer.

    You are quite right, stupid people are in everywhere, and racism is found in all groups, that’s include the blacks as well, just look at the Black Panthers in the US. The problem is that racism (white racism only) has become a political weapon for the left and they blow it out of proportions for political gains.

    You have been insulted haven’t you? So have I, my brother in law is a skin-head, a real one. The first time we met he called me rubbish and said would never accept my marriage. Today he’s my son’s god-father and spend more time at my house than at his brother’s.

    As I have been debating Enrique, there are two paths immigrants can take. One works well, the other doesn’t. It’s up to us to decided what to do and face the consequences.

  50. Tony Garcia

    Migrant Tale’s immigrant list –

    Adapted and succeeded: Enrique, Tony, Willie, Martin, Erik, Klay.

    Demanded rights and succeeded: –

  51. xyz

    “Our study indicates, that high amount of Finnish immigrants suffer from some degree of health problems and the health state factors have a large influence on the emigration into Spain. As this kind of trend might also exist among immigrants from other EU-nations, immigrants might burden the local Spanish health care services in the future.”

    “It is not unusual that those immigrants who are advanced in years have no Spanish or even English language skills”

    http://scielo.isciii.es/scielo.php?pid=S1885-642X2006000400002&script=sci_arttext

  52. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘You should be more grateful for debating these matters which are not part of our values. Nowhere in the law nor at school do we teach, or aim to teach, inteolerance.’

    Too bad you can’t say the same for Islamic countries or even Islamic schools in Europe.

    • Enrique

      –Too bad you can’t say the same for Islamic countries or even Islamic schools in Europe.

      Which specific schools? Where? How many?

  53. Klay_Immigrant

    Multiculturalists are people who support the promotion of multiple cultures at the expense of the native culture, as opposed to the assimilation of minorities into the dominant native culture.

    • Enrique

      –Multiculturalists are people who support the promotion of multiple cultures at the expense of the native culture, as opposed to the assimilation of minorities into the dominant native culture.

      They are “multiculturalists” because they follow the laws of the land? Nowhere in England is there a law and inference by an official body in writing that the way to live as an immigrant is via assimilation. Instead of calling these people “multiculturalists” why not name them defenders of civil rights. Was Martin Luther King a “multiculturalist?” Or would you claim that the poverty and injustice that blacks faced/still face in the United States is due to their unqillingness to assimilate? Are Amerindians in reservations unemployed because they don’t want to adapt? We live in culturally diverse societies and there are powerful laws (especially in England) that protect groups and individuals. I think it is very important to point out “groups” and “individuals.”

      If you are studying at university and if you are a son of an immigrant, you know that you can never run away from who you are. Remember that in life you may get hit by an event, meet a person, that will remind you who you were. A person with a hybrid culture that can adapt to both but wants to show real hard that he is only part of one.

      It does not really matter if you are a visible minority but how you and others in society see you.

  54. Tony Garcia

    “It does not really matter if you are a visible minority but how you and others in society see you.”

    This is exactly our point. And what determines how other sees you? The way you behave in that very same society. You behave according to the norms and customs and you are seeing positively, you don’t… good luck…

  55. JusticeDemon

    Tony,

    You can add myself and Ricky to your list of immigrants who have successfully integrated while insisting on their rights, but you draw a false dichotomy in suggesting that these are somehow mutually exclusive projects. They are not.

    To begin with, there is no way to insist on my rights unless I know what they are. This was a steep learning curve for me personally in the mid to late 80s, but as an immigrant I took the trouble to study the Finnish legal and administrative system in some detail, beginning with Finnish labour laws and moving onto the Finnish administrative system as applied to immigrants.

    It rapidly became clear that there was a substantial gap between our legal rights and the practices of our employers and of immigration authorities. However, the Finnish legal and administrative system has built-in self-correcting safeguards and is also a great deal more user-friendly than the systems of many other European countries.

    I believe that the gap between law and practice largely emerged because those safeguards were too seldom and too haphazardly applied. This state of affairs began to change in the late 80s when a succession of legal cases and formal complaints were upheld. Through trade union work and in other ways abuses of migrant workers by employers were tackled as they never had been before, and through diligent use of supervisory services and the administrative courts the Finnish immigration bureaucracy was forced to take a quantum leap in terms of professionalism and general administrative competence. Helping to spearhead this reform campaign was part of my personal integration process.

    George Bernard Shaw famously and perceptively observed that “the reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” This, I believe, should be read together with the serenity prayer “Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can change, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

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