Freedom of expression and religion

by , under All categories, Enrique

What does freedom of expression mean? For me it represents a Montesquieuian framework of society where all the parts watch over the other. These checks and balances are crucial to ensure that basic civil liberties enshrined in documents such as the UN Declaration of Human Rights are vigorously defended and encouraged.

Even though the law is pretty clear what ethnic incitement is, it is an important safeguard that won’t allow certain groups to go on a vigilante rampage against certain minorities.

Freedom of speech works in the same way in the United States but with a very big difference. US’ mosaic society, which comprises of many ethnicities, has learned to live in relative peace after the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s.

Europe is still light years away from the United States never mind Canada. All we have to do is open our history books and read about the horrors that took place in the former Yugoslavia, the racism that groups like the Roma suffer, and the Nazi Germany regime that over-dosed on its own madness.

Some Europeans still live so far back in time that they believe that diversity and innovation are threats.

The aforementioned are stark reminders of how Europe is still having a difficult time coexisting with minorities. That is one reason why the rise of far-right groups in Europe are a cause for concern.

Motives are another aspect that puts into question those ultra-right nationalistic groups. Are they really interested in defending everyone’s civil liberties if the first thing they would do if in power would be to put minority rights in cold storage? Can you trust a group that claims to defend civil rights with one hand and bashes certain minorities with another?

Do you set a good example for others to embrace your culture if the first thing that you show them is your loathing?

Any sensible person with a strong sense of justice and equality would not go around insulting and inciting other ethnic groups because they are different.

There are certain practical rules of conduct on how you behave when with members of the same groups or with those belonging to another culture. These rules only require common sense and are there because they facilitate peaceful coexistence.

Rule of thumb number one: Treat others like you would treat people in your own culture.

I personally believe that as our societies become more diverse we will find the right balance between what is appropriate and inappropriate. Such a balance will help us understand what the real meaning of freedom of expression means.

  1. Tony Garcia

    Sorry Enrique, but what you are advocating here is not freedom of expression but controlled expression.

    Freedom is freedom, I can say whatever I want regardless. If there is any control than it’s not longer freedom. Please keep in mind that I’m not arguing if such control should exist or not, I’m just saying that if any control is in place than we can’t no longer call it freedom of expression.

    An example is driving. we don’t have freedom of driving, we have a controlled driving. I can’t drive at any speed I want or intoxicated, I also can’t drive in restricted areas.

    You mention US and how ahead of us they are, but isn’t so that in the US the first amendment gives people far more right to say whatever they want than in Europe? Isn’t so that the US government is far less powerful then the Europeans in this area?

    Can I conclude that in your opinion Europe is not ready yet for a first amendment of its own?

    • Enrique

      –Can I conclude that in your opinion Europe is not ready yet for a first amendment of its own?

      Can you conclude that all these xenophobes that insult and fuel hatred are simply expressing their freedom of speech? If a person insulted me on the street he would get a call from my lawyer. Pretty easy, isn’t it. The lawyer would sue the person and his stupidity would rub it in.

  2. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Some Europeans still live so far back in time that they believe that diversity and innovation are threats.’

    It’s interesting Enrique and not for the first time that you among others on this blog have linked diversity and innovation together as if one cannot exist without the other. We all know that is not the case.

    Some of the most advanced technological innovative companies in the World have been born from the most homogeneous populations such as Japan, South Korea and even Finland (compared to other Western nations). Do any of these ring a bell, Nokia, Linux, Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Sharp, Nintendo, Samsung, and LG just to name a few.

    • Enrique

      –It’s interesting Enrique and not for the first time that you among others on this blog have linked diversity and innovation together as if one cannot exist without the other.

      If you would accept yourself then probably you would notice that you are an example. I am proud of my diversity. But tell me where in Europe are you speaking of where there is no diversity.

  3. Tony Garcia

    Klay, this is Enrique’s way to try to reinforce his case. We have seen this before – minarets and mosques, racist arson attach, translations, comments from politicians, etc…

    Have you noticed something interesting?

    “…These checks and balances are crucial to ensure that basic civil liberties…”

    So the best way to ensure liberties is remove some of it, during the 70’s I used to hear this a lot from my government. It’s all for our own good…

    • Enrique

      Tony, again you forget that we live in Europe and in Europe we adhere to certain standards and values. Please learn these things. It will make your life easier. If you are waiting for the far-right to win and change the laws, I suspect your wait will be very long and uneventful.

  4. Tony Garcia

    In 1972, “O Estado de Sao Paulo”, our most influential newspaper receive this telegram from the Justice Department.

    “De ordem do senhor ministro da Justiça fica expressamente proibida a publicação de: notícias, comentários, entrevistas ou critérios de qualquer natureza, abertura política ou democratização ou assuntos correlatos, anistia a cassados ou revisão parcial de seus processos, críticas ou comentários ou editoriais desfavoráveis sobre a situação econômico-financeira, ou problema sucessório e suas implicações. As ordens acima transmitidas atingem quaisquer pessoas, inclusive as que já foram ministros de Estado ou ocuparam altas posições ou funções em quaisquer atividades públicas. Fica igualmente proibida pelo senhor ministro da Justiça a entrevista de Roberto Campos.”

    Basically says that any comment or editorial unfavorable or critical to Brazil’s current economical or political situation were forbidden. Mind that it wasn’t forbid to comment the situation but comment in the wrong way. So in that way an image of stability and prosperity were kept.

    The same way, if we are uncomfortable with Muslims performing FGM, we just need to forbid people from saying it and problem is solved. If no one says it, it doesn’t exist, does it?

    Likewise if we want Muslims to be accepted we just need to forbid people from saying they don’t like them, so easily we create an image that they are all loved, making multiculturalists happy.

  5. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Rule of thumb number one: Treat others like you would treat people in your own culture.’

    Enrique can you honestly say Islam and it’s believers follow this advice? Would a Muslim treat a Jew the same way as another Muslim?

    • Enrique

      –Enrique can you honestly say Islam and it’s believers follow this advice? Would a Muslim treat a Jew the same way as another Muslim–?

      Sure thing. It has worked for me. I posted something the Päivi Räsänen said about the Muslims. It basically says that most Muslmis, like most of us, are hard-working and honest people. My experience with Muslims and other groups that I have been with has been positive. Why? Because I am considerate and cordial. I am that way with my neighbor and all those that I meet. Therefore I don’t have any major problems.

  6. Tony Garcia

    “Rule of thumb number one: Treat others like you would treat people in your own culture.”

    Actually this is a good one and I missed it. Enrique, how would this apply to my old Muslim workmake?

    • Enrique

      –Enrique, how would this apply to my old Muslim workmake?

      Tony, I have used this rule and it has worked for me. There are, as you know, all types in every group. But don’t go blaming a whole group if you had a bad experience. Moreover, one of the things I prize abour some people is that despite if somebody is acting unfairly, you do not lower yourself to that standard.

  7. Hannu

    “Rule of thumb number one: Treat others like you would treat people in your own culture.”

    But isnt that exactly what youre against?

    “documents such as the UN Declaration of Human Rights are vigorously defended and encouraged. ”

    Check what countries couldnt write it and why, i think you find it interesting.

  8. JusticeDemon

    Ricky

    I think you’ll find the ethic of reciprocity is most succinctly expressed do as you would be done by.

    Like all such maxims, its application depends on the circumstances. For example if you are hard of hearing, then you may be indifferent to loud noises, but this does not mean that you are free to remove the silencer from your car exhaust system.

    Political liberties are not absolutes, but they are particularly important in vertical relationships. The individual is accountable for the horizontal civil law consequences of exercising liberties (e.g. to the extent that you are free to call me a scoundrel, I am correspondingly free to sue you for defamation/to the extent that you are free to publish your writings, I am free to sue you for copyright infringement if you pass off my ideas as your own), and governments may also use the criminal law to place vertical restrictions on liberties in order to achieve a carefully defined public good (e.g. freedom of assembly does not imply a right to riotous assembly/freedom of speech does not imply the right to slander a population group/freedom of movement is not a licence to commit burglary).

  9. Tony Garcia

    “There are, as you know, all types in every group. ”

    A quite difference approach than the one you used when debating this case, isn’t? Interesting…

  10. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, here’s a good question for you, I wonder if you will answer it.

    No long ago I asked you you opinion about Muslims threatening the use of violence against innocent Christians in retaliation to the “burn the Koran” day. Your answer was fast and very clear…

    “By criticizing the victim you are trying to lessen the perpetrators guilt.”

    Now, on Sunday more the 50 Christians were murdered by Muslims inside a church in Baghdad. How would you react if a Christian went out and punched a Muslims in the face?

  11. xyz

    A quite difference approach than the one you used when debating this case, isn’t? Interesting…
    -Hehe…Tony you should better start working on improving your Finnish skills..or buy a good TV 🙂

  12. Tony Garcia

    “Why? Because I am considerate and cordial.”

    So Muslims behaving in a civilized manner is not a obligation but a reward? Haven’t you condemned Twiaz some time ago for saying that if immigrants behave well he will also treat them well? It only works in one way? Very… very… interesting…

    • Enrique

      Get off of it, Tony. You sound like a scratched record or a whining baby. If you have so many problems with people, I think you should try to find out why. The problem could be your approach.

  13. Tony Garcia

    Thanks for your answer Enrique, just what I was expecting, if they do, some how, some way, it’s ok. And you wonder why I use your blog…

    • Enrique

      –And you wonder why I use your blog…

      Thank you! You are so kind!

  14. Tony Garcia

    “If you would accept yourself then probably you would notice that you are an example. I am proud of my diversity. But tell me where in Europe are you speaking of where there is no diversity.”

    This is not what he said… please read with attention…

    ” you among others on this blog have linked diversity and innovation together as if one cannot exist without the other. “

    • Enrique

      Tony, I think there are a lot of things you could read with much closer attention.

  15. Tony Garcia

    “Can you conclude that all these xenophobes that insult and fuel hatred are simply expressing their freedom of speech. If a person insulted me on the street he would get a call from my lawyer. Pretty easy, isn’t it. The lawyer would sue the person and his stupidity would rub it in.”

    I take from that you that in your opinion Europe shouldn’t have one then. But you used US as an example. I’m quite confused. Maybe you think the US society is more mature than Europe and can handle this extra freedom, we still need to grow up a bit more…

  16. Tony Garcia

    “Get off of it, Tony. You sound like a scratched record or a whining baby. If you have so many problems with people, I think you should try to find out why. ”

    Sorry but, this another way to say “my point point is weak”.

    • Enrique

      — Sorry but, this another way to say “my point point is weak”.

      I believe that I am not the only one that says this. Don’t you think it is time you get over these things and move on?

  17. Tony Garcia

    “Don’t you think it is time you get over these things and move on?”

    Aren’t we here debating? I just don’t see how we can have a honest debate when you keep running way from the main issue. That being said, my question wasn’t answered…

    Why do you think Americans should have more right to speak their minds then Europeans? Or you think that neither, the Americans or Europeans, should have such a right?

    • Enrique

      The difference between Americans and Europeans is that the latter don’t have racial issues like in this part of the world. Since I am a law-abiding individual I believe that people are responsible for the actions. Aren’t you? And what do you think that people in the United States can go mouthing off insults to other groups? Why don’t you read up on the NTIA 1993 Report. I would go as far as to say that in the US they are more sensitive about insulting and getting sued for racist remarks than in Europe.

  18. Tony Garcia

    “Muigai, the U.N. Human Rights Council’s special investigator on racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and intolerance”

    Who? He’s what? From where? The same UN witch is run by a cartel of Islamic dictatorship? The same UN witch elected Iran for the commission on women’s rights? The same UN witch is doing nothing when Iran is developing nukes?

    First, please allow me to laugh, very respectfully, of course… Now, If such authority on yomman rites say it, it’s because it’s true, not doubt…

  19. Tony Garcia

    “The difference between Americans and Europeans is that the latter don’t have racial issues like in this part of the world. ”

    Really? I thought your yomman rites special investigator is saying things are quite bad in the US. Good to know your common sense has prevailed and you don’t agree with such rubbish report from such irrelevant organization.

    “And what do you think that people in the United States can go mouthing off insults to other groups?”

    That’s not the point. Americans can speak their minds far more freely than Europeans. I asked you if you think they should have such a right, and I guess you do. I also get from you that Americans are a more mature society them we are. Although Mr. investigator kind of disagree with it…

    “I would go as far as to say that in the US they are more sensitive about insulting and getting sued for racist remarks than in Europe.”

    Don’t know but I think Ann Coulter kind of disagree with you.

  20. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, have you checked where Mr. yomman rites investigator works?

    Mohammed Muigai advocates. http://www.mohammedmuigai.com/

    Interesting place to work for when you are investigating the “suffering” of Muslims, isn’t? How far do you think he had to travel to do his interviews? To the coffee room?

  21. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    You always go silent when I ask you this question:

    Which of your human rights do you think are unnecessary? Which would you give up?

    I think this is because you don’t really know what human rights are. Name one – go on – impress us all.

    • Enrique

      Thanks JusticeDemon for the list. Tony and Klay, I recommend it especially for you.

    • Enrique

      JusticeDemon, William Blake put it in the following words: The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn of the crow..

  22. Tony Garcia

    “Tony and Klay, I recommend it especially for you.”

    Enrique, what this got to do with the subject? Why do you wonder off so much? Don’t you think you have a point strong enough to keep the debate honest? Why don’t you get what Kay or I said and show to us what right or wrong and why, but without running from the subject? I’m sure you can do it…

  23. pun the librarian

    “Rule of thumb number one: Treat others like you would treat people in your own culture.”

    Funny, I never realized you were against multiculturalism.

    • Enrique

      –Funny, I never realized you were against multiculturalism.

      Hi pun the librarian, please define what you mean by multiculturalism. Thank you.

    • Enrique

      Tony, one thing that bothers me about your assumptions is that you blame everyone. There are all types in all cultures. I could make the point about how many crimes in Finland have alcohol in the background and pose the question: If the Finnish government had vigorously enforced how much people drank, do you think it would lead to a drop in crime? Even though this is a simple question it is more complex than you think.

    • Enrique

      Do politicians learn and how much? That can be debated quite extensively.

  24. Tony Garcia

    “Do politicians learn and how much?”

    You are quite right on that, I must admit, however once politicians first and most important concern is stay in office, maybe they should learn that is you piss the majority off you better start to look for another job.

  25. Tiwaz

    -“Rule of thumb number one: Treat others like you would treat people in your own culture.”

    So how is this any different from what I have been telling you foreigners to adjust to?

    I DO treat everyone as I would treat people in my own, Finnish, culture. Problem is, foreigner idiots do not grasp that they are not acting properly in Finnish cultural context!

    Thus, I treat them like I would treat rude, stupid Finn.

    As for this part:
    “Do you set a good example for others to embrace your culture if the first thing that you show them is your loathing?”

    Does foreigner set a good example or deserve lots of sympathy if they show loathing and ignorance of culture and way of life of host nation?

    -“I personally believe that as our societies become more diverse we will find the right balance between what is appropriate and inappropriate. Such a balance will help us understand what the real meaning of freedom of expression means.”

    Proven false repeatedly. Societies which are divided are weak, rife with conflict and fail to remain stable in long term.

    You can of course have your faith, but it is not based on facts. I want facts to rule this land, not fairytales.

    • Enrique

      –So how is this any different from what I have been telling you foreigners to adjust to?

      The way we interact in our own society with our group there are two important things: acceptance and trust. If on top of this you treat people with respect and take into account their needs, you will be in a win-win situation. I see your approach too absolute and ethnocentric. Integration is a two-way process NOT one-way. What we want are results. Integration works best were there is acceptance and opportunities. Prejudice is the antithesis of the latter.

  26. Tony Garcia

    “Even though this is a simple question it is more complex than you think.”

    I know, but still a valid question. Maybe the governments of Europe should look for examples elsewhere, how about the Chinese way? Maybe we should start firewalling the inappropriate sites, how about that? All for our own safety, of course…

    I remember in my country during the 70’s all media organizations needed to have a hardcopy of all they have printed or said on air, so the government could look for inappropriate messages, I think this is also a good idea, isn’t? I know it sounds a bit drastic but doesn’t the end justify the means? And isn’t the end, our own safety, a Nobel one?

    Don’t you agree with me that, some times, we, the people, are like children and we need to be watched, otherwise we can hurt ourselves?

  27. Tony Garcia

    “So how is this any different from what I have been telling you foreigners to adjust to?”

    The difference is that anything coming from you is wrong by definition. You are a Finn remember?

    • Enrique

      Hi Klay, Järvenpää is a typical suburb of Helsinki. It has a nice lake and that is where Sibelius lived.

  28. Tony Garcia

    Talking about freedom of expression, with you Ian O’Doherty…

    “And this is why they got screwed
    Here in Europe we tend to focus on America’s economy and her involvement in two hugely unpopular wars, but in America it’s more complex than those issues alone.

    Yup, the other war they are fighting is a civil war — the culture war. And Obama is losing.

    On the night of the polls, members of the New Black Panthers turned up the same polling stations they attended last election, carrying billy clubs and threatening white voters. The last time they did this, no charges were pressed by Attorney General Eric Holder who is, of course, himself black, because apparently they were simply exercising their constitutional rights to freedom of expression and assembly.

    Compare that with the dire threats of legal action against the Florida pastor Terry Jones who wanted to burn the Koran.

    Holder’s office has still not ruled out the possibility of pressing incitement charges against Jones.

    So, let’s get this straight — a black Attorney General allows a black quasi-terrorist group to openly threaten white people, yet tries to screw a white man to the wall for annoying some Muslims.

    Somehow I think he might have reacted differently if it was members of the Tea Party who turned up at the polling station. “

  29. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony, I was talking to my girlfriend’s friend who grew up there and said it is a nice place but I’ve never been. That’s all.

  30. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Järvenpää includes the scenic cultural cradle around the northern end of Lake Tuusula. This is associated with famous cultural figures including Jean Sibelius, Pekka Halonen, Eino Leino and Eero Järnefelt, who all had homes and studios there.

    It also includes the Jamppa district, which has received ESF subsidies for social deprivation work.

    The town has some very good summer festivals.

  31. xyz

    I have been there. My Fiancées parents do live there. Visited the house where Jean Sibelius lives (to enhance my knowledge of Finnish culture) 🙂

  32. Tiwaz

    -“The way we interact in our own society with our group there are two important things: acceptance and trust.”

    So why when asked all accepting you suggest has to come from Finns? We must accept foreigner traditions and cultures as superior to ours.

    I can accept that some weirdo wants to spend month without eating during day. I do not accept him EVER trying to expect me to do anything according to his cultural tradition.

    I have accepted that immigrants have some funny variations in their habits. It is time for you immigrants to accept that Finnish culture defines acceptable borders of behavior in Finland.

    -“If on top of this you treat people with respect and take into account their needs, you will be in a win-win situation.”

    Respect must be earned. As guests to native hosts, it is first duty of immigrant to earn this respect.
    And needs are defined in Finnish culture. If you “need” to have something which violates Finnish culture, you are in wrong place.

    Outside things which Finnish culture does not consider acceptable, who cares? But false is to expect that Finns go out of their way to meet your needs.

    -“I see your approach too absolute and ethnocentric.”

    It is Finland. Accept it as it is, or go find place where you can settle without demands of appeasement.

    -“Integration is a two-way process NOT one-way.”

    So why you never tell immigrants to adjust to Finnish culture? It was here first, it is what 95% of population follows. It takes precedence in everything.

    -“What we want are results. Integration works best were there is acceptance and opportunities.”

    Acceptance comes from showing that you try to fit in.
    Opportunities come from presenting yourself in acceptable way as beneficial.

    Both are things which IMMIGRANT must do. They have to show they want to be part of community, they have to show they have skills and abilities which are of use.

  33. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    Sinnemäki is merely calling attention to section 16 of the Integration Act. This has been on the statute book for a decade already, and corresponds to the duty of any registered jobseeker to participate in training as a condition of receiving labour market subsidy.

    But of course you knew that…

    🙂

  34. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, I notice you haven’t given your opinion about the Greens calling immigrants to learn Finnish or else. Why this right now? Do you think this rather conservative approach has anything to do with the election? Do you think they are starting to figure out the direction of the tide and decide not to swim against it?

    I wonder, now that apparently the left has abandon you in your saga to social reengineer Finland, who will you turn to?

    Lesson learned my friend, trust the left is the same than having a snake as a pet. At the beginning it looks great, but soon enough it’ll turn against you and bite you very hard.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique, I notice you haven’t given your opinion about the Greens calling immigrants to learn Finnish or else. Why this right now?

      Right, I guess I should give you a “green” answer so you could fit that in your world view. Yes, “Tony,” it is a bad thing that immigrants learn to speak the language. There, now run off and tell the world.

  35. Klay_Immigrant

    JusticeDemon have you all of a sudden turned into a spotty faced geeky teenager with all the ‘lol’ and ‘ffs’? All I can say is omg. Not big and not clever.

  36. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique I’m suprised that you haven’t proposed a Hug a Muslim day in Finland yet. But then again you can’t even shake hands with Muslim women so even that crosses their boundaries.

  37. Tony Garcia

    ” Yes, “Tony,” it is a bad thing that immigrants learn to speak the language. There, now run off and tell the world.”

    I asked you a valid question and you gave me a silly answer. Don’t understand why…

    • Enrique

      That question you asked is a no-brainer. Do I ask you questions like if you dye your hair blonde to fit in more? Apart from having a highly extreme view of a certain religious group, you have the same views of people whom you call “multicultural enrichers.”

  38. Tony Garcia

    “That question you asked is a no-brainer.”

    Well that’s your opinion, witch I respectfully disagree…

    “having a highly extreme view of a certain religious group”

    This certain “religious group” has given me an enormous amount of help to create my opinion about them.

  39. Tony Garcia

    Enrique once you said that one of the biggest threat to our society is a two-tier society, once set of rules and laws for us and one for them. You obviously blamed this possibility on True Finns. Very well…

    http://www.aamulehti.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/imaami-haluaisi-lisaa-muslimituomareita-suomeen/197346

    “Vähintä mitä Hajjarin mukaan voisi tehdä, olisi kouluttaa lisää islamilaisia tuomareita. Heidän tuomionsa kelpaisi sharian mukaisena päätöksenä. Muslimit ovat ottaneet asian esiin käräjätuomareiden kanssa, mutta nämä eivät ole vielä innostuneet.”

  40. JusticeDemon

    Tony

    Question no. 7 on the Finnish residence permit test: “Are Sharia and Rabbinical arbitration procedures legal in Finland?” Yes/No.

    Better start cramming for your exam. I’m sure you can find all of the answers in the tabloids. 🙂

    The Kaiser Chiefs have a song about you, Tony:

    I can prove anything,
    I’ll make you admit again and again
    That I can prove anything,
    The way that it’s written, again and again.

    And it’s only ’cause you came here with your brothers too,
    If you came here on your own you’d be dead,
    It’s only ’cause you follow what the others do,
    It’s not excuse to say you’re easily led.

    You could choose anything,
    You choose to lose again and again,
    And you could do anything,
    But why should you do anything again?

    And it’s only ’cause you came here with your brothers too,
    If you came here on your own you’d be dead,
    You’re winding yourself up until you’re turning blue,
    Repeating everything that you read.

    So here we go with a letter,
    Can you fix it for me?
    Because we need entertainment
    To keep us all off the streets.

    So tonight, you’ll sleep softly in your bed…

    You could try anything,
    And no one would know, apart from you and me,
    You could stop anything,
    It starts with just one, and turns to two then three.

    And it’s only ’cause you came here with your brothers too,
    If you came here on your own you’d be dead,
    You raise a glass until you raise a fist or two,
    And get a shopping basket wrapped ’round your head.

    So here we go with a letter,
    Can you fix it for me
    For 24-hour drinking
    To keep us all off the streets?

    So tonight, you’ll sleep softly in your bed…

    We are the Angry Mob,
    We read the papers every day,
    We like who we like, we hate who we hate,
    But we’re also easily swayed.

    • Enrique

      Tony, life must be hard with so many Muslims jumping in the shadows. Maybe this text will help you find the answer when you take your naturalization test:

      Valitettavasti hillittömän muslimimaahanmuuton myötä Suomessakin tulee olemaan lisääntyvässä määrin myös ihka aitoa rasismia, joka kohdistuu varsinkin juutalaisiin mutta myös kantaväestöön ja muihin etnisiin ryhmiin. Ja kaupan päälle syrjintää, sietämätöntä ylimielisyyttä ja huonoa käytöstä, vihaa, naisten alistamista, lasten silpomista, seksuaalista häiriköintiä ja vähemmistöjen vainoa, mellakointia, lippujen polttelua, älämölöä, huumeita, ryöstelyä, raiskausrikoksia, pedofiliaa, polygamiaa, lapsiavioliittoja, häpeäväkivaltaa, rituaaliteurastuksia, ruoskimisrangaistuksia, kivityksiä ynnä muita läpeensä inhottavia ja umpikieroutuneita tapoja ja ilmiöitä. Lopulta jopa itsemurhapommituksia ja terrorismia. Siis jos emme tanssi tasan tarkkaan heidän pillinsä mukaan.”

    • Enrique

      Here is the far-right True Finns version of the Finnish naturalization test that they would require foreigners to take. Fill in the blanks:

      Valitettavasti hillittömän muslimimaahanmuuton myötä Suomessakin tulee olemaan lisääntyvässä määrin myös ihka aitoa _______, joka kohdistuu varsinkin juutalaisiin mutta myös kantaväestöön ja muihin etnisiin __________. Ja kaupan päälle syrjintää, _________ ____________ja huonoa käytöstä, vihaa, naisten alistamista, lasten _________, seksuaalista häiriköintiä ___________ vainoa, mellakointia, lippujen polttelua, älämölöä, __________, ryöstelyä, raiskausrikoksia, pedofiliaa, polygamiaa, lapsiavioliittoja, häpeäväkivaltaa, rituaaliteurastuksia, ruoskimisrangaistuksia, kivityksiä ynnä muita läpeens ___________ ja umpikieroutuneita tapoja ja ilmiöitä. Lopulta jopa itsemurhapommituksia ja terrorismia. Siis jos emme tanssi tasan tarkkaan heidän pillinsä mukaan.”

      U

  41. Tony Garcia

    Again? I can’t believe. Don’t you have anything else? From a group who, according to you, spend their free time basing Muslims for fun, they don’t seeing to have much material published, do they? You have to use the same text over and over…

    Nevertheless, as usual, the main point is left untouched.

    “when you take your naturalization test”

    Why would I ever do that?

    • Enrique

      The text is a good example, a reminder, of the mindset of the True Finns and how they see other people. But you agree with this so I am actually wasting my time with you. However, it is a good example of their mindset and ignorance. But mark my word, that text is a classic!

    • Enrique

      Pissed? Nah. Just tragic-comic. Why would I be worried about a minority party getting into parliament? I wrote about this in a previous post that stated that the True Finns would never become a majority party. They are a small one amd they do not worry me a bit. Your “champion” Halla-aho has got a problem in his hands. But confer with your True Finn buddies and ask them for more information.

  42. Tony Garcia

    “I wrote about this in a previous post that stated that the True Finns would never become a majority party. ”

    Who ever said they will, most importantly, who ever said they need to be majority? Just with the pools results the winds are already changing. It’s never been about put them in power, and you know that, it’s all about a tighter and wiser immigration.

    It may happen, it may not, need to wait and see. But so far so good…

  43. Tony Garcia

    “Why would I be worried about a minority party getting into parliament? ”

    And for someone who is not worried you do write a lot about it…

  44. Tony Garcia

    One text written by one person show the mindset of the whole party? Very well, using this logic we can easily say that abu hamza is good example, a reminder, of the mindset of Muslims and how they see non-Muslims.

    • Enrique

      Tony, you can also look at the Nuiva Manifest which Hirvisaari has signed. Extremism is one thing and it should be judged strongly no matter where. I am not worried about these people whom you claim are a threat because there is NO threat in Finland. The only threat I see to our society are the far-right anti-immigration wing of the True Finns. But they are only a so-called taxi party – all of its members could fit in the backseat of a London cab. And I would seriously question your judgement and views of Muslims in Europe. Remember, Tony, they are Europeans too and you are trying to exclude them from our society. This shows me that you have very little knowledge of the customs and values of the European Union.

  45. Klay_Immigrant

    Nice to see Muslims continuing their unassuming and humble ways.

    -‘Muslims clash with police after burning poppy in anti-Armistice Day protest’

    -‘They gathered near Hyde Park in London before burning a model of a poppy on the stroke of 11am then marching along Exhibition Road and along an underpass, past the Victoria and Albert and Natural History Museums.’

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8126357/Muslims-clash-with-police-after-burning-poppy-in-anti-Armistice-Day-protest.html

    I wonder if they even realise poppies also represent the honour of WWII veteren Allies against the Nazis.

  46. Tony Garcia

    “I wonder if they even realize poppies also represent the honor of WWII veteran Allies against the Nazis.”

    Of course they do… who did the Nazis wanted to exterminate during the WWII?

  47. Klay_Immigrant

    -“These were the Muslim extremists who brought shame to the memory of the dead yesterday by breaking the traditional two-minute silence with chants of ‘British soldiers burn in hell’.”

    -‘Ironically, it was the freedom for which thousands fought that allowed them to stage their demonstration at the stroke of 11am – the exact moment the nation came to a halt at the Cenotaph, across the country, and after parallel services at British bases in Afghanistan.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1328703/Two-faces-Armistice-Day-Boy-brimming-pride-fanatics-burning-hate.html#ixzz15BI4cLPy

  48. Tony Garcia

    “Yes Tony but do they realise that the Nazis would have done to them (Muslims) the same they did to the Jews?”

    Good point, it remains to be seeing what is bigger – their idiocy or their hatred toward Jews.

  49. JusticeDemon

    The people who defile the memory of Armistice by conflating it with entirely unjustified campaigns in places like Iraq bear the greater responsibility. The poppy fields of Flanders bear no relation to a campaign that began with lies told to the UK Parliament about WMD and was then pursued with further lies told in order to conceal war crimes perpetrated against civilian populations.

    This is also the view of several long-standing members of the Royal British Legion with whom I am personally acquainted.

    The solution might well be to restrict the poppy appeal to the World Wars and start a new charity for veterans of various post-colonial military campaigns after 1945. Perhaps something along the lines of wear your dead baby with pride would work just as well.

  50. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony, that was a great article, thanks for posting it. I don’t see how one could argue against it with any real evidence or logic.

    Enrique and Co. like to stereotype immigration critics as either skinhead neo-Nazis or opportunistic politicians. But as the author of that article has shown, people from all walks of life including Emeritus professors, ethnic minorities or immigrants themselves all convey the same message.

    The BNP is a prime example of how far people will get by acting the way Enrique describes it. In other words nowhere without a hope in hell of ever getting into parliament even though there is immigration concern in the U.K. But with intelligence, sophistication and practical solutions a party can be popular and enter parliament as demonstrated across Europe.

    • Enrique

      –But with intelligence, sophistication and practical solutions a party can be popular and enter parliament as demonstrated across Europe.

      Yes, with a little help from my friends “recession” and “scapegoating.” Take away economic recession and the role of blaming certain groups for all your troubles start to diminish. Simple mathematics.

  51. Klay_Immigrant

    ‘Pakistani men abuse white girls’

    ‘FORMER home secretary Jack Straw says some Pakistani men see white girls as “easy meat” for sexual abuse.
    The Blackburn MP talked of a “specific problem” involving Pakistani men in Britain and called on the community to be “more open” about the issue.’

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3338232/Pakistani-men-abuse-white-girls.html

    Now the actual content of the article is not suprising at all to anyone who knows the mindset of Muslim men towards young white girls but the intruiging issue is the source of these comments.

    The BNP have been highlighting exactly the same concerns for many years but in typical fashion were slapped down and branded racist by the Labour government at the time and Jack Straw who as home secretary was directly involved with the large scale open immigration policy being adopted. So obviously the story was never really brought to public attention.

    But now Jack Straw is raising exactly the same concerns and unless he was sleep walking during his home secretary reign he would have known it then too. I suppose as the Labour party is not in power now they have nothing to lose in alienating some of it’s voters to try and bring support from elsewhere.

    This article is nasty case of it’s not what’s being said but who is saying it, something liberals and the left are very good at practising.

  52. Tony Garcia

    Hi Klay, happy new year, my friend.

    Well, we can’t say that multiculturalism hasn’t “enriched” UK, can we? I’m just waiting the left start demanding that grooming is a Muslim yooman rite and those girls (and families) must stop being racists, start to have more “cultural sensitivity” and celebrate diversity…

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