Forgiving our past enemies and mending relations with new ones in Finland

by , under All categories, Enrique

 This struggle to banish our hatred of others is a long journey that will take generations to complete.  In it hides as well the seed of racism. What are we waiting for? 

By Enrique Tessieri

I have never understood why some Finns are capable of expressing  so much hatred for religious groups like Muslims, Somalis, blacks, and especially the Romany minority and Russians.  Even if the Continuation War (1941-44) ended 67 years ago, some of us still sound as if we were in those trenches waiting for the enemy to attack.

What good can come out of being in such trenches and glorifying a questionable war that took place a long time ago? Very little, I suspect, especially if those historical events hinder today our ability to make amends with our former enemies and poison our views of our ever-culturally diverse society.

My grandfather fought in the Civil War of 1918, Winter War (1839-40) and Continuation War. I have a lot of respect for him as well as all those who were put in harm’s way.

Are these wars and rivers of blood the best we can do as a nation? Do we have to continue to search in such ghastly places our identity and strength as a nation? Can’t we do better?

Certainly we can.

But in order to understand the issue we must ask why some of us still persist in glorifying past wars and hating those countries that fought against. Groups like the Defense Forces, Finnish Border Guard, the police, far-right politicians, political parties like the Perussuomalaiset and a long list of others benefit economically and politically by instilling such fear.

Those that endured past wars didn’t come out of them unscathed but traumatized and impoverished. My mother, who lived right across Marshall Carl Mannerheim’s headquarters in Mikkeli, told me that she saw an orange the first time in her life when she went to Stockholm in the early 1950s.

That trauma and hurt from those conflicts are still there but too little has been done to overcome them. We are still their captives and because of that some of us have problems in trusting foreigners.

But don’t we have to put to an end one day our suspicions of groups like the Russians? What about if we started today?

Yes, I do think that today would be a good day to forgive and cast aside my deepest fears of others not for my sake but for my children and grandchildren.

Now is a better time than ever to embark on such a journey because it will be a long one but well worth it.

  1. Mariia

    Great article. Couple months ago, I met this Russian guy, who was one of the sweetest and nicest guys I have ever met. I just do not understand why to hate on people, because of their nationality. The War was fought, because of one of the cruelest person in history, and the people did not have a say to that. If you decided to stand up and criticize anything, you got killed. As well as your family did.
    My point is that you would not like to be judged by your nationality and the decisions made by the leader of your country, so don’t do that to anyone else.

    • Migrant Tales

      Thank you Mariia and welcome to Migrant Tales. I think it is high time that we begin to talk about these matters. They are not only important to us, but to our children and grandchildren. It is a much cheaper and prosperous way of building a society. Building it on racism and suspicion costs tax payers a lot of money.

  2. Jouko Siivonen

    My father escaped the Reds dead squad in 1918, fought also in Winter war and continuation war. every day I can watch his medals on my wall next to his picture. I will never forget, nor forgive but I can live with russians but I hate undemocratic state of Russia until I die. More I hate Finnish Communists who collaborated wit Sovjet Union. Until the Sovjet empire collapsed our motto was: better dead, than red. Later I found that there are russian who hate communism like I do, and today I have russian friends who have also suffred sovjet regime.Still I remember that part of our country is stolen by the sovjet imperialists and lest we forget! Should the reds had their way and sovjet forces had occupied this country, I won’t be writing this. Even after the war my father was harrassed by these red idiots but he stayed in his office thanks to loyal right-wing friends who did not left the country. God forgives, I don’t.

    • Migrant Tales

      –God forgives, I don’t.

      Jouko, what kind of a Finland would we have lived if Nazi Germany would have won the war? Moreover, I think that definition that there are left- and right-wing Finns is a bit hazy.

      Forgiveness is one of the most effective ways of getting over your traumas and people who have wronged you.

  3. Native Finnish Woman

    Hatred of civilian Russians is childish, and we should get over that as a nation already, I agree. But I think it’s a dying thing. Eastern Finland likes its Russian tourists, as does the capital region. I can’t imagine that many Finns would have a problem with random Russian visitors or the average Russian in Russia. I mean people under, say, 50. But perhaps I just don’t know how bad it is in some places.

    What _does_ still prevail strongly in Finnish culture, though, is the mistrust of Russia as a country, sometimes also referred to as “the Russians”, even if what people mean are the political choices and actions of the country. I think this mistrust does have some valid reasons.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Native Finnish Woman, welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales. I hope you are right. If you speak to some kids in elementary school, they do have a much broader view of the world. The most important matter is that they grow up seeing Finns and immigrants of different backgrounds.

  4. Mark

    Jouko

    My father escaped the Reds dead squad in 1918, fought also in Winter war and continuation war. every day I can watch his medals on my wall next to his picture. I will never forget, nor forgive but I can live with russians but I hate undemocratic state of Russia until I die.

    It is exactly this kind of ‘hatred that will never die’ that has been the bane of humanity for thousands of years. We make ourselves the victims of history and ideology, by failing to take our opportunity to rewrite it. I understand you feeling a loyalty to your father’s and his generation’s sacrifices, but that loyalty would not be broken if you decide to live out what they were fighting for, i.e. peace!

    Men go to war not to kill, but to protect and to ensure their children and loved ones can live in peace. While you choose to hang to that hate that underpinned the war, the war is not over, and the peace has not been won, at least, not for you. That’s a shame, because I wonder then if you really do understand the sacrifice that many have made fighting totalitarianism.

    Later I found that there are russian who hate communism like I do, and today I have russian friends who have also suffred sovjet regime.

    My enemies enemy is my friend, even if he’s Russian. 🙂 Almost there, I suppose.

  5. Greg

    Forgive, Forget. It’s the best way to better yourself as a human being. I, as an ethnic Russian in Finland, have never had the “luck” of experiencing the aforementioned bias, perhaps it has something to do with my physical appearance. I’ve always felt welcomed and respected, and I gladly return the favor whenever I can. The only “hostile” act towards me was a toothless old woman on a train muttering something about “foreigners” while looking for empty beer cans. Compassion is the only weapon in my arsenal in this case.
    Juoko: most russians of my generation have only very recently even become aware of the fact that there was a winter and continuation wars with Finland. This was, understandably, not in the history books. Also, by your logic, I should have some kind of godless hatred for the germans: I don’t. In fact I like german culture very much.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Greg, and welcome to Migrant Tales :-). Great to see you here.

  6. Liisa Bradley

    My parents met at the Headquarters in Mikkeli during the Continuation War. I was brought up with a healthy regard towards the enemy from my Mom, the Karelian and my Father, the pohjanmaalainen. I totally got their dislike. And yes, I remember when bananas first appeared in the shops in Helsinki. Nothing unusual about that. Talk to any Britt my age and they will quote the same, and even worse with their weekly, pitifully low, hot water baths. We at least had our saunas.
    I don’t hate the Russians. We have had many encounters, students living with us etc. My worry is Finland and her actual real estate. I grew up in Finland that allowed no foreigner to purchase a piece of Finnish soil. I do understand that, I took pride in it. Then came EU and the rules had to change. I understand, but what about the continuous, slow occupation by Russians who are buying up Finland, getting the deal with the Saimaa Canal etc, etc. etc.
    What is that all about? Is my homeland being invaded at a slow pace by the millions of our Eastern neighbors? Under what laws and how did we get here?
    I have lived in United States for the past 45 years. There are gaps in my connect with Finland, but my love and respect, the yarning will always ring the bells when I read about change that might cause trouble for her in the long run. 5 million Finns/ what 300 million Russians? Is it my fear, or is it reality talking?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Liisa Bradley and welcome to Migrant Tales. That’s interesting that your parents met in Mikkeli. My mother lived right across Mannherheim’s headquarters on Vuorikatu.

  7. Depressed 4 Reason

    Greg: Forgive, Forget. It’s the best way to better yourself as a human being. I, as an ethnic Russian in Finland, have never had the “luck” of experiencing the aforementioned bias, perhaps it has something to do with my physical appearance. I’ve always felt welcomed and respected, and I gladly return the favor whenever I can. The only “hostile” act towards me was a toothless old woman on a train muttering something about “foreigners” while looking for empty beer cans. Compassion is the only weapon in my arsenal in this case.
    Juoko: most russians of my generation have only very recently even become aware of the fact that there was a winter and continuation wars with Finland. This was, understandably, not in the history books. Also, by your logic, I should have some kind of godless hatred for the germans: I don’t. In fact I like german culture very much.

    I am happy for you as a white russian you dont have to deal with hostile and mean stare when in public. I as an african have to deal with strange and mean looks everytime i step out of my door, sometimes that can take a toll on a person. Dark skin toned people are the ones who gets it worst in finland. I dont know about Asian but i think they have it too even tho some finns claim to like chinese people becus according to them, asians are hard working people, that’s why they generalize chinese people and tend to favor them and class them as an ideal immigrants to their country.

  8. Depressed 4 Reason

    Greg:I, as an ethnic Russian in Finland, have never had the “luck” of experiencing the aforementioned bias, perhaps it has something to do with my physical appearance. I’ve always felt welcomed and respected, and I gladly return the favor whenever I can.

    Too bad that i cant return any favor, since i never get appreciation and welcoming gesture by finns, on the contrary i as dark skin toned person, seem to get the worst treatment ever. I hope this to change seriously, becus we too are humans and deserve a recognition.

  9. Depressed 4 Reason

    ONETHING I DON’T UNDERSTAND. ALL OF A SUDDEN I SEE ALOT OF FINNS COMING HERE TO DISCUSS ABOUT HOW THE COLD WAR TOUCHED THEM, BUT ODDLY I DON’T SEE THEM IN THAT THREAD ABOUT THE MURDERED SOMALI YOUTH. i don’t see them there condemning for what happened to that youth. Why is that!!!!?

    • Migrant Tales

      –i don’t see them there condemning for what happened to that youth. Why is that!!!!?

      D4R: Another good question. One of the reasons why some Finns may not care is because such news is shameful. They prefer to answer the problem with their silence and apathy, which is quite widespread in Finland when it comes to racism. Those who disagree totally with us prefer, however, to change the subject thus robbing attention from the problem.

      You see Finnish society’s many reactions to racism and discrimination on Migrant Tales.

      But let’s return to the problem and that crucial question we should always ask: What can we do to change the situation?

  10. Depressed 4 Reason

    migrant tales: But let’s return to the problem and that crucial question we should always ask: What can we do to change the situation?

    My opinion to your question is a cooperation. We need more of that with finns, but i dont see them as being interested, that’s why sometimes discussing about racism can be frustration.
    Enrique we need more finns to come out and say: They’re against racism and injustices against any humanbeing no matter what his and her background is, even if a Somali or a moslem.

    • Migrant Tales

      –More finns to come out and say: They’re against racism and injustices against any humanbeing no matter what his and her background is, even if a Somali or a moslem.

      Well said, D4R. Too many Finns and society are still indifferent to our question although we are an ever-growing number. If we consider ourselves a just society that accepts innovation and new ideas, the total opposite of the latter is racism and discrimination. The message to politicians should be a simple one: It is cheaper in tax euros to integrate people than to exclude them from society.

      This is one of many important messages we should drive home.

      Any others?

  11. Mark

    Enrique we need more finns to come out and say: They’re against racism and injustices against any humanbeing no matter what his and her background is, even if a Somali or a moslem.

    That’s it, D4R, that is what is required. People have to stand up for their values, and if they value tolerance, mutual respect, respect for freedom of religion and the right to hold your ethnic identity and not be denigrated because of it, then they should come out and say it. Because these values are under threat in Finland at the moment.

    There are already many many people who have been swayed by arguments that divide our society, perpetrate falsehood and awful negative racial and cultural stereotyping, who seek to seize the whole idea of Finnish identity and turn it into a mono-ethnic government-prescribed cultural doctrine.

    The lessons of history are clear as mud. If you don’t speak out for what you stand for, you will lose it.

    First they came for the Somalis,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Somali.

    Then they came for the Arabs,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t an Arab.

    Then they came for the Multicultural activists,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a multicultural activist.

    Then they came for the unemployed,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t unemployed.

    Then they came for all the other welfare dependents,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a welfare dependent.

    Then they came for the contemporary artists,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a contemporary artist.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.

  12. Depressed 4 Reason

    Mark good point, but where are finn participants in this thread? why arent finns interested participating in this thread, discussing about this social ill that’s taking place in their country. Why we only get in this thread only finns who attack us or try to manipulate discussion that’s taking place?

  13. Depressed 4 Reason

    Enrique i suspect there might have been a hatecrime in oulu again. have you checked Iltalehti? they’re reporting about pizza shooting. There was this finn who started shooting at algerian pizza workers for no known reason. Check it out on iltalehti, what do you think?

  14. Landor

    “Mark good point, but where are finn participants in this thread? why arent finns interested participating in this thread, discussing about this social ill that’s taking place in their country. Why we only get in this thread only finns who attack us or try to manipulate discussion that’s taking place?”

    Perhaps because this is a strictly anti-white finn homepage only interested in demonizing Finns and not reporting the daily bullying, assaults, murders, manslaughters, attacks that take place in Finland and Europe of Europeans and Finns by immigrants, which outnumber the attacks committed by natives against immigrants.

    This blogger represents the very worst of that league, and if he didn’t have a single attack by Finns to present then he would just write about that always so delusional ghost of instituationalized racism that every failed immigrant sees everywhere.

    If Finland isn’t good enough then no one forces anyone to stay here. That should be the path followed by all immigrants instead of them wrecking our society and trying to destroy any national spirit and culture that we have.

    This is the very racism that we see by immigrants who want to enforce their own culture, not unlike any other colonizers, while they want to preserve every bit of their own.

    • Migrant Tales

      –If Finland isn’t good enough then no one forces anyone to stay here. That should be the path followed by all immigrants instead of them wrecking our society and trying to destroy any national spirit and culture that we have.

      These says a lot about who you are, Landor. So if there is violence against a group, their response should be to accept it by leaving. No way. This is my home and immigrants have the same rights as you to feel safe and protected.

  15. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: Perhaps because this is a strictly anti-white finn homepage only interested in demonizing Finns and not reporting the daily bullying, assaults, murders, manslaughters, attacks that take place in Finland and Europe of Europeans and Finns by immigrants, which outnumber the attacks committed by natives against immigrants.

    landor where di you get the impression that this is anti white finn? you are wrong for even saying that. This thread is not racially but rather it discusses racism against immigrants wich finnish media continues to ignore. Nowadays you dont see discussion taking place in finnish media about racism on immigrants, that’s why we had lately immigrants being killed in row.
    Landor to me you sound like your speaking by your emotion. You act like no one can criticise finns. Nobody wants to wreck your society or destroy your country, take a deep breath, your being delusional, perhaps you might need to stop going to homma forum for a while.

  16. Landor

    Finnish media continues to ignore? Finnish media is very much reporting about racist crimes and journalists are very much speculating about how Finland’s become a racists nation, with politicians like Lipponen suggesting an anti-racist march at one point.

    Finnish media is certainly not reporting about the racist crimes against Finns. Nothing more than a small note was to be found on the group attack and stabbing of a Finn on Thursday which left the young man fighting for his life. God knows how many such attacks have been left out completely in the dark by the media.

    Finnish media might not be as corrupt as swedish media where the swedish perpetrators are hung out to dry in the media while the foreign criminals could be pixelated to give them the impression that it was white swedes who committed the crimes, but Finnish media is neither as good as norwegian media which both dare to report the foreign perpetraitors names, as well as statistics about attacks from which we can see the horrendeous overrepresentation of immigrants in crime against natives/whites.

    Finland can do without most of this immigration, we need no frustrated, angry or hateful immigrants within or borders. Japan is the prime example of a nation that doesn’t have to deal with blows from within against its great people and culture because it allows no such immigration.

    Immigrants should just face the fact that if they don’t like our country, people and culture and want to assimilate then tehy are better off in their home counries.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Finnish media continues to ignore? Finnish media is very much reporting about racist crimes and journalists are very much speculating about how Finland’s become a racists nation, with politicians like Lipponen suggesting an anti-racist march at one point.

      Another slam dunk comment by you, Landor. Where do you get these? From the tip of your rage?

  17. Depressed 4 Reason

    landor: Finnish media continues to ignore? Finnish media is very much reporting about racist crimes and journalists are very much speculating about how Finland’s become a racists nation, with politicians like Lipponen suggesting an anti-racist march at one point.

    Finnish media is certainly not reporting about the racist crimes against Finns. Nothing more than a small note was to be found on the group attack and stabbing of a Finn on Thursday which left the young man fighting for his life. God knows how many such attacks have been left out completely in the dark by the media.

    What’re you talking about? i think you have a prbblem of comprehending what’s the definition of racism. How can small minority in finland be racist to finnish majority? you’re shamefully a liar and you came here to twist and manipulate the discussion wich is taking place. I hope you do know that, another immigrant was killed yesterday or was’t today in pizzeria. A finn went to a pizeria and spree shooted at immigrant workers killing one. You’re talking about one incident where a finn got in to a fight with a group of immigrants, i dont kno much about the incident but i speculate that, the finn might have started some racist crap, you never know considering the hostile atmostphere taking place in finland against immigrants.

  18. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: but Finnish media is neither as good as norwegian media which both dare to report the foreign perpetraitors names, as well as statistics about attacks from which we can see the horrendeous overrepresentation of immigrants in crime against natives/whites

    You’re a big liar. Where is your source that immigrants overrepresent finn majority in crime rate? How can this be when finland has very small immigrant minority? You’re a liar who is upset of racism being exposed, that’s why your coming here lying and twisting things up.

  19. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: Finland can do without most of this immigration, we need no frustrated, angry or hateful immigrants within or borders.

    Maybe immigrants are frustrated and angry becus of the racism their facing in finland, and maybe you should notice and pay attention to them since they’re your guest to your country, instead of accusing and hating immigrants everytime there is recession is taking place in your country. It’s true that everytime there is recession in finland, immigrants are taken as a shooting point and also blamed on everything.

  20. Landor

    These says a lot about who you are, Landor. So if there is violence against a group, their response should be to accept it by leaving. No way. This is my home and immigrants have the same rights as you to feel safe and protected.

    Aha, so if an immigrant hates Finland and Finns the logical solution is that he still stays?
    Excellent, and what we’ll enjoy in a few years is the same as people in for example France, Britain and Sweden have enjoyed with outbursts of burned cars, riots and murder.
    I’m myself of non-ethnic Finnish background, but unlike many ungratefuls I’ve assimilated, understanding the need for a country to be united, not divided along all lines. Of course anyone who doesn’t assimilate will find it hard to find their ways around society and will live their lives as frustrated, angry and hateful “citizens”, always playing the oh so excellent victim/race card.

    • Migrant Tales

      Yes, Landor, you have assimilated while others have integrated/adapted. If you have such anger towards immigrants it does not surprise me. Some immigrants are more conservative than the most nationalist Finns. You are an example.

      But remember one thing: You do not raise yourself on the social totem pole by pushing immigrants below you. It doesn’t work that way.

  21. Landor

    “Another slam dunk comment by you, Landor. Where do you get these? From the tip of your rage?”

    Well, where were the large scale news about a group of immigrants almost murdering a young Finn on thursday? Why don’t we see that as top news on text-tv as todays shooting which anyone can see? Not media sexy enough?
    I’m not the one who has dedicated a large part of my life to some blog writing about the “horrific” Finns.

  22. Landor

    “Yes, Landor, you have assimilated while others have integrated/adapted. If you have such anger towards immigrants it does not surprise me. Some immigrants are more conservative than the most nationalist Finns. You are an example.

    But remember one thing: You do not raise yourself on the social totem pole by pushing immigrants below you. It doesn’t work that way.”

    I’m by no means pushing any immigrants lower, as low as they go they have moved themselves, that’s including you, to the level of bitter ungratefulness towards your new nation that you don’t seek to become part of but rather change to fit your far-flying dreams. Not much unlike the rainbowish ideas that were fed to people some decades ago about communism, do people believe that these multicultural societies would work.

    We can see all around the world how the so called minorities are overrepresented in crimes against whites, but yet the Left and the immigrants or minorities are oh so fast to blame the whites for these crimes. Finland is no different as we could see from the sources I provided. The more immigrants unassimilated walking these streets the more crimes will we have against those who are or have become Finnish.

    The only crime Finns are committing are the one of being foolish enough to play this game and gradually force themselves to become victims while being blamed of being the perpertraitors.

  23. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: I’m myself of non-ethnic Finnish background, but unlike many ungratefuls I’ve assimilated, understanding the need for a country to be united, not divided along all lines. Of course anyone who doesn’t assimilate will find it hard to find their ways around society and will live their lives as frustrated, angry and hateful “citizens”, always playing the oh so excellent victim/race card.

    Landor how about you comment about the racism that occures in finland right now. There was a pizzeria shootng yesterday, and two days ago there was a somali stabbed in leppävaara before there was oulu incident, i mean these hatecrimes are rapidly increasing. Why arent you commentin on them instead putting yourself in a defensive mode. i hope you do understand that these incidents touches you too wether you liked it or not, see these injustices and killings are taking place in your soil and you need to condemn them.

  24. Landor

    “Landor how about you comment about the racism that occures in finland right now. There was a pizzeria shootng yesterday, and two days ago there was a somali stabbed in leppävaara before there was oulu incident, i mean these hatecrimes are rapidly increasing. Why arent you commentin on them instead putting yourself in a defensive mode. i hope you do understand that these incidents touches you too wether you liked it or not, see these injustices and killings are taking place in your soil and you need to condemn them.”

    Obivously I’m not cheering because of these horrific crimes. It’s obviously nothing good, but it amazes me how these are the top news while attacks on Finns are virtually in the dark.

    Much like the recent murder of a Swedish father of 2 small children who unprovocedly was kicked to death by a group of african immigrants. It received about no national news coverage in Sweden, but had it been the other way round it would certainly have been the top news. The underground internet-networks did however a good job digging up details.
    Thankfully we have the internet where al these crimes can be blown out in full light. Sweden does have a better undeground network to cover crimes that don’t find their ways to the newspages but hopefully Finland can follow suit very soon.

  25. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: We can see all around the world how the so called minorities are overrepresented in crimes against whites, but yet the Left and the immigrants or minorities are oh so fast to blame the whites for these crimes. Finland is no different as we could see from the sources I provided. The more immigrants unassimilated walking these streets the more crimes will we have against those who are or have become Finnish.

    Your paranoia is worrying me. I’m really concerned about your mental health, maybe you need to seek psychiatric evaluation.

  26. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: Much like the recent murder of a Swedish father of 2 small children who unprovocedly was kicked to death by a group of african immigrants. It received about no national news coverage in Sweden, but had it been the other way round it would certainly have been the top news

    Landot but we’re in finland not in sweden, i dont get why do you have to rip off newses from sweden or other countries when we should be more concerned about our country. What happens in sweden isn’t our business but finland is so let’s not lose focus here.

  27. Landor

    “Your paranoia is worrying me. I’m really concerned about your mental health, maybe you need to seek psychiatric evaluation.”

    Well, what’s your take on that? That’s something “isolated” that only seems to gradually spill over from country to country that follow the same path?
    I’m very sure of that there were a quite a few swedes holding on to the same views as you do before the situation in Malmö spilled over turning the city into what it is now. If it wasn’t so horrific it would almost be funny how the swedes who always complained about Finland’s violent society now have a little gangster town of their own to worry about.

    “Landot but we’re in finland not in sweden, i dont get why do you have to rip off newses from sweden or other countries when we should be more concerned about our country. What happens in sweden isn’t our business but finland is so let’s not lose focus here.”

    Yes, we should obviously lose the big picture and focus only on the small details.

  28. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: Well, what’s your take on that? That’s something “isolated” that only seems to gradually spill over from country to country that follow the same path?
    I’m very sure of that there were a quite a few swedes holding on to the same views as you do before the situation in Malmö spilled over turning the city into what it is now. If it wasn’t so horrific it would almost be funny how the swedes who always complained about Finland’s violent society now have a little gangster town of their own to worry about.

    Again let’s focus on finland not sweden, sweden can dealw ith their own problem and we deal with finland. We both know that the small minority living in finland arent threat to you or to any other finn, but Hommaforum gangsters possess seriouse threat to the small minority living in finland. Im sure you’re aware of the constant death threats they’re making in their websites.

  29. Mark

    Isn’t it funny – two immigrants murdered in as many days, another in hospital with gunshot wounds, and out come the trolls from Hommaforuum trying to carry out ‘damage limitation’ on those blogs that give any publicity at all to the matter.

    Landor

    If Finland isn’t good enough then no one forces anyone to stay here. That should be the path followed by all immigrants instead of them wrecking our society and trying to destroy any national spirit and culture that we have.

    Spoken like a true racist!

    This is the very racism that we see by immigrants who want to enforce their own culture, not unlike any other colonizers, while they want to preserve every bit of their own.

    Spoken like a true believer, Landor! And which fascist organisation have you been receiving your porridge from?

  30. Greg

    Depressed 4 Reason:
    Too bad that i cant return any favor, since i never get appreciation and welcoming gesture by finns, on the contrary i as dark skin toned person, seem to get the worst treatment ever. I hope this to change seriously, becus we too are humans and deserve a recognition.

    I understand your point, but the harsh reality is: Finland does not owe you, or me, anything at all. I did not come here to escape persecution or starvation, some may even say that I’ve “traded down” from my previous position on a social ladder, and I’m fine with that, because I truly enjoy and love this country as much as my own homeland.

    Seeing as you are obviously a member of a visible minority, like it or not, you have to work extra hard to prove your “worthiness” in a way. Yes, this should not have to be done, and yes, innocent until proven guilty is the rule, BUT: Finland is extremely inexperienced when it comes to immigration and just like in any small European state, the population overall feels like it’s being “invaded” (see Landors comments). It is our job, as immigrants, to “do right” and prove the fearmongerers wrong. Headbutting and hissyfits will only make things worse.

  31. Greg

    Liisa Bradley: There are 141 million russians in Russia, and trust me, they are not coming to Finland for the lack of land, or resources, or money for that matter. What they do crave is social order, fairness, stability and justice. The very things most “patriotic” finns are willing to shed in order to keep the “scary foreigners” out. Although I find foreign land ownership rules a little odd, (isn’t land ownership in on itself unnatural to begin with?) it still does not grant one the privileges of a citizen.

  32. Mark

    Greg

    Seeing as you are obviously a member of a visible minority, like it or not, you have to work extra hard to prove your “worthiness” in a way. Yes, this should not have to be done, and yes, innocent until proven guilty is the rule, BUT: Finland is extremely inexperienced when it comes to immigration…

    That really is no excuse. A five-year-old can tell you that racism is wrong, Greg, and Finland isn’t exactly bottom of the class when it comes to education.

    The only reason that it’s not uncommon in Finland is nothing to do with ‘inexperience’, it’s to do with acceptance and shifting the responsibility for ‘coping’ onto the immigrants; it’s there job to make up for the bigotry of locals.

    That’s just acceptable to me Greg, in a modern democracy that enshrines the rights of individuals in its constitution, to allow one portion of the population to discriminate against a minority. Too many people are too willing to say, just like you, get your head down and prove them wrong – do we have a choice? Is this antiobiotic-resistant TB we’re talking about here? Nope, it’s completely unnecessary and unjustified and people really should stand up and tell these idiots that they are talking through their behinds!

    I just cannot see how you can appease bigots like this Greg. It’s certainly not our JOB! It’s our right to live free from discrimination. What about that?

  33. Depressed 4 Reason

    Greg: I understand your point, but the harsh reality is: Finland does not owe you, or me, anything at all. I did not come here to escape persecution or starvation, some may even say that I’ve “traded down” from my previous position on a social ladder, and I’m fine with that, because I truly enjoy and love this country as much as my own homeland.

    Then what are you complaining about?

  34. Depressed 4 Reason

    Greg: Seeing as you are obviously a member of a visible minority, like it or not, you have to work extra hard to prove your “worthiness” in a way. Yes, this should not have to be done, and yes, innocent until proven guilty is the rule, BUT: Finland is extremely inexperienced when it comes to immigration and just like in any small European state, the population overall feels like it’s being “invaded” (see Landors comments). It is our job, as immigrants, to “do right” and prove the fearmongerers wrong. Headbutting and hissyfits will only make things worse.

    despite making effort to integrate and work hard to be part of the society in anyway will be useless to you if the society rejects you and not accept you as part of them, as some finns do to some immigrants for instance Somalis or dark skin toned people as general. But for you Greg, it has been easy for you, becus your white and invicible.

  35. Depressed 4 Reason

    Greg: I, as an ethnic Russian in Finland, have never had the “luck” of experiencing the aforementioned bias, perhaps it has something to do with my physical appearance. I’ve always felt welcomed and respected, and I gladly return the favor whenever I can.

    So Greg what is the favor you gladly would return to finland? if Finland doesnt owe you anything??

  36. Landor

    “Again let’s focus on finland not sweden, sweden can dealw ith their own problem and we deal with finland. We both know that the small minority living in finland arent threat to you or to any other finn, but Hommaforum gangsters possess seriouse threat to the small minority living in finland. Im sure you’re aware of the constant death threats they’re making in their websites.”

    Why only focus on Finland when we see the picture anywhere in the Western world where immigrants who don’t assimilate gain foothold.
    The police has already stated that nothing point to racism in the killings, so there goes your story through the window, and in case you claim that this is racism then it’s only fair that all the killings and beatings of whites are concluded to be racism as well. The stabbing of a Finn got the same “non-racist” marks by the police, although I might find that a little weird, but that’s always been the case on the other hand, as it’s never racism when a white person is assauloted or murdered by immigrants.

    Immigrants are a serious threat to the native populations of Europe, the most brutal torturous killings in Western Europe have been the work of immigrants kiling some European. It’s a threat but as you racists love hating Finns and other Europeans it’s only natural that you will defend immigrants at every step while pushing down those who are naive enough to open their doors.

    Mark: “Isn’t it funny – two immigrants murdered in as many days, another in hospital with gunshot wounds, and out come the trolls from Hommaforuum trying to carry out ‘damage limitation’ on those blogs that give any publicity at all to the matter.”

    The police stated it nothing points towards racism at this point so just suck that up and cry

    “Spoken like a true racist!”

    So opposing the weakening of the cultural identity of a nation and its people is racism? Well, then I hope you remember to remind every immigrant that they should give up their culture, religion, ethnic feelings and whetever nationalism towards their old country, as anything short of that is according to you racism.
    But being serious I find it weird that the natives should change their culture and ways. Why would they? It’s their nation, you should earn it to become part of it, they shouldn’t have to even bother or waste time and energy on anything else than advancing their culture and nation. not someone else’s.

  37. Mark

    Landor

    Immigrants are a serious threat to the native populations of Europe, the most brutal torturous killings in Western Europe have been the work of immigrants kiling some European. It’s a threat but as you racists love hating Finns and other Europeans it’s only natural that you will defend immigrants at every step while pushing down those who are naive enough to open their doors.

    Was that quoted directly from the Breivik manifesto, Landor? You are way out there, my friend, and quite likely to do harm if you really believe this ‘filth’ you are spewing out.

    Look at your words man – serious threat, brutal, torturous killings, killing, racists hating Finns, defend, pushing down, naive.

    Look at your words.

    They are poisoned.

    Your thoughts are poisonous. Your beliefs are full of hatred; your response to the very word ‘immigrant’ makes you think of killings, torture, defence, war, hatred.

    You are seriously in danger of being radicalised. Nope, not in danger, you are already radicalised.

    So opposing the weakening of the cultural identity of a nation and its people is racism?

    Just putting immigration in these terms makes you a racist. And worse, a radical militant. Can you not see that you are becoming the very thing you claim to hate?

    Well, then I hope you remember to remind every immigrant that they should give up their culture, religion, ethnic feelings and whetever nationalism towards their old country, as anything short of that is according to you racism.

    Go back and read my text; you have mangled the meaning beyond recognition.

    But being serious I find it weird that the natives should change their culture and ways. Why would they?

    A very good question, Landor. Why would they? Name a single thing that you personally have had to change because there were immigrants in Finland? A single thing.

    they [native Finns] shouldn’t have to even bother or waste time and energy on anything else than advancing their culture and nation, not someone else’s.

    So again, tell me when you have been forced to waste your precious energy on advancing something else other than your culture and nation? Seems to me that this whole immigration thing has you putting a lot of energy and time into advancing YOUR culture and nation. I guess you should be grateful to immigrants for giving you an opportunity to discover your nationhood.

    If only that were true, though. As you’ve shown in your other threads, you do not have even the first clue as to what kind of country Finland is, even though you claim to defend it. Finland IS a country that values religious freedom, and yet YOU seek to destroy that. You might be Finnish Landor, but you do not represent the great Finnish values. You represent a sick and depraved minority that want to make war on other cultures.

    You ARE everything you claim to hate.

  38. Greg

    Depressed 4 Reason: I would love to be invincible, and trust me, not everything is a cakewalk that it may seem to you. I understand your frustration, but what is your solution? Mine is to offer an olive branch, again, and again until somebody takes it. All I see here is worked up hostility, bruised egos and an unjustified “hide your daughters” attitude. What is your solution?

  39. Mark

    Mine is to offer an olive branch, again, and again until somebody takes it. All I see here is worked up hostility, bruised egos and an unjustified “hide your daughters” attitude. What is your solution?

    Telling immigrants they have to work extra hard to prove their ‘worthiness’ is not offering an olive branch Greg! Sorry, mate. I’m not being hostile, but even with the quotes around it, that’s low .

    I mean, you even say it should not be done, but then make unconvincing excuses for the fact it IS done in Finland.

    Headbutting and hissyfits will only make things worse.

    More condescension. It must all seem very emotive and tiresome up there on your perch, Greg!

    Personally, I don’t have much time for people like you, Greg. You claim you are somehow on our side, but then you go and undermine the whole issue with subtle digs at those that actually choose to stand up to bigotry. So, fighting for ‘the right to live without discrimination’ is all just hissyfits and headbutting, is it. Wow, bow to the great wise Greg….

  40. Depressed 4 Reason

    Greg: All I see here is worked up hostility, bruised egos and an unjustified “hide your daughters” attitude. What is your solution?

    My solution is that you stop making assumption about us and criticising, come and join us, even tho racism doesnt touch you the way it touches a dark skin toned person, still you’re an immigrant and my thinking is we have and face same discrimination but in a different level.

  41. Depressed 4 Reason

    Mark : So, fighting for ‘the right to live without discrimination’ is all just hissyfits and headbutting, is it. Wow, bow to the great wise Greg….
    🙂

  42. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: Why only focus on Finland when we see the picture anywhere in the Western world where immigrants who don’t assimilate gain foothold.
    The police has already stated that nothing point to racism in the killings, so there goes your story through the window, and in case you claim that this is racism then it’s only fair that all the killings and beatings of whites are concluded to be racism as well. The stabbing of a Finn got the same “non-racist” marks by the police, although I might find that a little weird, but that’s always been the case on the other hand, as it’s never racism when a white person is assauloted or murdered by immigrants.

    Why focus on Finland? becus we live in finland, when i pic a news paper i dont pic swedish news paper becus it doesn touch and effects me. We dont live in sweden we live in finland , so im more concerned of what happens in my yard. Well you can believe what the media says and police but i believe it may have been a hatecrime, considering that im a dark skin toned immigrant who faced racist attacks multiply times and you never had to face any of that. It’s clear that to you racism seem to be impossible as a white finn it’s easy for you not to see any racism at all. I dont understand why you have to make this racial, you seem to notice only race more than what you would see them as individual human beings. I dont generalize when white people kill, murder, rape their dauther and molest children, that all white people are the same. I see them as an individual i dont care about the race, i see us all as human beings and everyone of us must pay for his crime not for his brother or his father crimes. Racism should be condemned wether it’s committed by an african or asian or caucasian. Im against any form of racism, do you?

  43. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: The police stated it nothing points towards racism at this point so just suck that up and cry

    So if racism wasnt involved in the killings of immigrants, why then do you jump to the conclusion that the killing of finn by immigrants in vantaa involved racism?

  44. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: Immigrants are a serious threat to the native populations of Europe, the most brutal torturous killings in Western Europe have been the work of immigrants kiling some European. It’s a threat but as you racists love hating Finns and other Europeans it’s only natural that you will defend immigrants at every step while pushing down those who are naive enough to open their doors.

    Im an immigrant and im no threat to no finn. I dont harm finnish public so i dont see how i am threat to finnish people. it seems to me though you have been prgrammed in hommaforums where they spread those myths and lies about immigrants and the weak minded buys it.

  45. Landor

    Mark: “Was that quoted directly from the Breivik manifesto, Landor? You are way out there, my friend, and quite likely to do harm if you really believe this ‘filth’ you are spewing out.

    Look at your words man – serious threat, brutal, torturous killings, killing, racists hating Finns, defend, pushing down, naive.

    Look at your words.

    They are poisoned.

    Your thoughts are poisonous. Your beliefs are full of hatred; your response to the very word ‘immigrant’ makes you think of killings, torture, defence, war, hatred.

    You are seriously in danger of being radicalised. Nope, not in danger, you are already radicalised. ”

    Except for you precious Breivik there has been no such mass killings of immigrants by natives as by immigrants of natives in Europe, or very brutal and torturous killings of single natives. Thinking of the numbers we can easily conclude that the likelyhood of an immigrant to be radicalised or feel such hate is much higher and therefore true reason to be worried.
    Of course you wouldn’t care about that because in your mind Europeans deserve every bit of it.

    “A very good question, Landor. Why would they? Name a single thing that you personally have had to change because there were immigrants in Finland? A single thing.”

    If you mean culturally personally then I of course haven’t as I’d always oppose that, but if you mean as a society Finland is putting on for example schools to give the immigrants their own religious and cultural education, I have personally moved away from an area where I gradually felt way too unsafe and do also choose where I move more carefully today than I did years ago.

    “I guess you should be grateful to immigrants for giving you an opportunity to discover your nationhood.”

    That’s perhaps the one positive thing about this and for many this is the reality.

    Depressed4: “Why focus on Finland? becus we live in finland, when i pic a news paper i dont pic swedish news paper becus it doesn touch and effects me. We dont live in sweden we live in finland , so im more concerned of what happens in my yard. Well you can believe what the media says and police but i believe it may have been a hatecrime, considering that im a dark skin toned immigrant who faced racist attacks multiply times and you never had to face any of that. It’s clear that to you racism seem to be impossible as a white finn it’s easy for you not to see any racism at all. I dont understand why you have to make this racial, you seem to notice only race more than what you would see them as individual human beings. I dont generalize when white people kill, murder, rape their dauther and molest children, that all white people are the same. I see them as an individual i dont care about the race, i see us all as human beings and everyone of us must pay for his crime not for his brother or his father crimes. Racism should be condemned wether it’s committed by an african or asian or caucasian. Im against any form of racism, do you?”

    Sweden is a prime example to look at since they were at the stage we are now about 20 years ago. Seeing the failure of Sweden to successfully implement the multicultural ideology is what should be at the forefront of future Finnish policies.
    I wasn’t the one who made this racial at the beginning, I took your own “Finns vs us immigrants”-talk to you.

    “So if racism wasnt involved in the killings of immigrants, why then do you jump to the conclusion that the killing of finn by immigrants in vantaa involved racism?”

    I’m just playing your little game as you are doing this over and over with much more fiercity.

    “Im an immigrant and im no threat to no finn. I dont harm finnish public so i dont see how i am threat to finnish people. it seems to me though you have been prgrammed in hommaforums where they spread those myths and lies about immigrants and the weak minded buys it.”

    I have seen the minds of other immigrants after a time of knowing them and surprisingly often they, after having tried to put up a smiling face and preach this “we are all together”-multiculturalism, have sqeezed out something very deeply hateful and radical about either whites or Finns and as I’m white I suppose whatever I heard hardly was the very worst of their dark minds.

  46. Mark

    Landor

    Except for you precious Breivik there has been no such mass killings of immigrants by natives as by immigrants of natives in Europe, or very brutal and torturous killings of single natives.

    Landor, you speak like someone brainwashed. There have been hundreds if not thousands of brutal murders of immigrants in Europe in the last twenty years. But no population group has a monopoly on brutality, that’s for sure. If you want to convince yourself immigrants are murderers etc., you will always find plenty of ‘evidence’, though you will also have to ignore a heck of a lot of evidence to make yourself believe ‘they are bad and we are good’.

    Thinking of the numbers we can easily conclude that the likelyhood of an immigrant to be radicalised or feel such hate is much higher and therefore true reason to be worried.

    Radicalisation comes in many different forms, from the anti-social social Darwinism of Auvinen and Saari. to the bomb-making obsession of Petri Gerdt. Some are ideologically driven, some are simply a lust for carnage. What they have in common is the complete disrespect for life.

    It’s that same disrespect that you show for the lives of immigrants that marks you out as a possible radical – that and the obsession with brutal murder and your idea that Europe is under invasion. You are militarising your ideology and grievances, and that is very very dangerous, Landor. The victims of radicalisation are invariably innocent. Do you care about that?

    Of course you wouldn’t care about that because in your mind Europeans deserve every bit of it.

    That is absolutely not true, and I resent you even suggesting it. I am against bigotry in whatever form it takes, and every culture in the world is fighting bigotry of some kind, including Islamic cultures. But you do them no favours in this fight against militant radicals by only identifying their religion or nationalities with extremists or criminals and ignoring the vast majority of moderates and peace-loving people.

    Landor, anger is the single biggest driver in radicalisation. Anger that is not properly processed festers into hatred, which further distorts the picture of reality. Do you understand this, do you acknowledge this?

    I’m just playing your little game as you are doing this over and over with much more fiercity.

    It’s a game with consequences, Landor!

    I have seen the minds of other immigrants after a time of knowing them and surprisingly often they, after having tried to put up a smiling face and preach this “we are all together”-multiculturalism, have sqeezed out something very deeply hateful and radical about either whites or Finns and as I’m white I suppose whatever I heard hardly was the very worst of their dark minds.

    How many, Landor? One? Was that enough to convince you? Details please. What was deeply hateful and radical? And since when did you stop treating people as individuals and start putting everyone of a particular colour or nationality into ONE BOX?

    • Migrant Tales

      JusticeDemon, wasn’t Question the blogger that threatened you with a brick? If so, he is out of here.

  47. Depressed 4 Reason

    Landor: Sweden is a prime example to look at since they were at the stage we are now about 20 years ago. Seeing the failure of Sweden to successfully implement the multicultural ideology is what should be at the forefront of future Finnish policies.
    I wasn’t the one who made this racial at the beginning, I took your own “Finns vs us immigrants”-talk to you.

    Again we’re not in sweden we’re in finland, why is’t hard for you to concentrate on finlands issues. It’s illogical and ridiculous to contrast other countries issues to finland, when logically things don’t go that way. If something occures in one country it will not necceserily occure in other country. So your logic is, Sweden had issues with immigrants then let’s be racist to immigrants in Finland?

    Landor: I wasn’t the one who made this racial at the beginning, I took your own “Finns vs us immigrants”-talk to you.

    I never hinted this discussion to be Finns vs Immigrants. That’s stupid. This thread tends to tackle racism a social ill wich is threat to us and Finns, so this is our concern together.
    Landor let’s not make this racial, we’re all human beings we should come together and think how we can cohabit peacefully.

    Landor: I’m just playing your little game as you are doing this over and over with much more fiercity.

    To me this is not a game, i dont take this lightly i take it seriously. racist is something that has effected my entire life, so it’s a matter of a very seriouse thing so i take it personally. Don’t come here thinking this is a game, this is not a game so stop playing games.

    landor: I have seen the minds of other immigrants after a time of knowing them and surprisingly often they, after having tried to put up a smiling face and preach this “we are all together”-multiculturalism, have sqeezed out something very deeply hateful and radical about either whites or Finns and as I’m white I suppose whatever I heard hardly was the very worst of their dark minds.

    Again you go there generalizing all immigrants becus of some bad apples. Look we immigrants too are to be taken as individuals and so to be judged as individuals. I can’t be blamed of, of what some immigrants done wrong, you landor you cant be blamed of what breivik did right? so generalizing people is stupid and illogical. I hope to see you stop generalizing people and see them as individuals not as groups.

  48. Mark

    Landor

    Not sure if you have been banned again. 🙂

    But if you haven’t, I noticed you skipped answering the obvious question I asked you:

    Landor said:

    But being serious I find it weird that the natives should change their culture and ways. Why would they?

    Mark asked:

    A very good question, Landor. Why would they? Name a single thing that you personally have had to change because there were immigrants in Finland? A single thing.

    Landor replied….with nothing. No surprise there!

  49. justicedemon

    Mark

    Of course there was no response to your question. There isn’t much point in stirring up panic for political profit if you get caught up in the panic that you have caused.

    I reckon we’ve seen the last of Question/Landor for a while, but I’m sure that a similarly verbose crypto-fascist user name will soon emerge to amuse us again with the usual blend of lies and scaremongering.

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