Finnish police confirm ethnic background of second death on Friday

by , under All categories, Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

The Finnish police have confirmed to Migrant Tales that the second death of a young man to be a naturalized Finn who was born in Somalia.  The young man lost his life on in Espoo on Friday. It is the third killing of an immigrant in just over three weeks.

The first one happened in Oulu, when a Somali fell to his death while attempting to escape from three Finns that barged into his home.

Iltalehti reports the death in a short story the death of a young man on Friday but those not mention his nationality.

In a span of about three weeks, Finland has seen three deaths involving two Somalis and one Moroccan over the weekend.

  1. Hannu

    Now you lied, no one was killed in Oulu and no one barged in his apartment or to him. They tried to kick his door, unsuccelfully, and instead of calling police somali committed what i would call darvin awards.

  2. Peter

    Hannu: I pity you. You come here trying to score points and try to make jokes at the expense of a human life. Shame on you!

    How would you react if you were a young Somali man? My guess is that the police wouldn’t be the first people you would turn to. Amongst the Somali community in Finland there is a deep seated distrust in the police, and with good reason I might add.

    Young Somali men have often been the target of police stop and searches that border on harassment. I fear that upon hearing three aggressive and violent persons trying to break into your home, you’d try to escape to safety.

    Now I ask you to condemn the idiots who made this young man so fearful for his life that he’d do something as risky as he tried. I’m yet to hear you make such a statement!

    Let’s see if you have enough humanity left in you to do the right thing and now disavow the actions of the three who caused this tragedy? Can you do that?

    And while I’m at it let’s hear you state your disapproval of the young man who killed his peer in Espoo and the gun man who shot two workers in a kebab shop in Oulu. I’d like to read that you find their acrtions utterly disgusting. Do you?

  3. Hannu

    Those three? As far i know they were well known idiots.
    But that doesnt change that they didnt kill that somali.

    If someone starts kick my door first thing i would do is to call police. If somalis dont trust police then its their problem. And of course somalis are target of police stop, it would be stupid to not stop them. “we are looking illegal immigrants who just came, lets stop this native finn…..”

    And peter ill go on that when you write about 4 mans who stabbed one or 3 mans who assaulted and robbed one etc. dont go there, i have way more than you.

    I think almost everyone has right to be peacefully who he/she is.

  4. Peter

    Hannu: You clearly have not paid attention to my previous posts. If you’d had you’d notice that do not defend anybody for their racist, xenophobia or otherwise bigoted acts, be they verbal or physical. Look back over the comments on several posts and you will see that I have challenged newcomers who have themselves made comments I consider racist towards Finns. Whether you consider yourself a member of the ‘majority population’, a ‘minority’, a ‘newcomer’ or something else entirely, this does not excuse bigotry in any form.

    If you four men you stabbed one man or the three men who attacked and robbed a young man did this because of his skin color (including being white), religion (including being Lutheran Christians) or sexual orientation (including being heterosexual); then I am totally appalled but this behavior. I will never excuse such behavior!

    I hope that the individuals committing these crimes are punished to the full extent of the law. If anybody is motivated to commit a crime on the basis of hatred for others due to a socially contrived classification (i.e., ‘race’, ethnicity, etc.), then they are not deserving of my time, support, or respect.

    As for what you say about “those three”, this does not deny the fact that their actions resulted in this man’s untimely death. We are yet to see what charges are brought against them. Personally I hope that they are prosecuted for constructive manslaughter, that is where malicious intent in a commission of a crime applies to the consequences of that crime. In simple terms this means that act of attacking the young Somali man’s is directly linked to his death and therefore the “idiots” as you call them are culpable for this tragic death.

    By calling them “idiots” you are not taking a stand and saying that it upsets you that three members of our society would act in this manner towards another human being. You did not express your disgust at their behavior, but rather sought to deflect my argument by trying to suggest that I only see one side. I am asking you to make a statement that you find any racist despicable regardless of the passport he/she holds or the color of his/her skin. To be quite frank, I’m simply asking you to state that racism and xenophobia are bad!

    I asked you to place yourself in the other person’s shoes for a moment, to have some empathy. You failed to show even the tiniest bit here! If the Somali community feels so little trust for the police that they do not call even in times of dire emergency, it is not “their problem,” as you state. It is in fact our problem. A society is only as good as the sum of its parts. It is our collective failure if such things happen!

    “I think almost everyone has right to be peacefully who he/she is.”

    Finally, I await the day that you state that everyone has right to live peacefully no matter who he or she is. You can drop you qualifying statements such as “almost”, it’s not a shame to admit that everyone has this right! 😉

    Such human rights are for all or none! Given such a choice I guess we can agree that we want everyone to have this right, can’t we?

    • Hannu

      Mark, sources and sources, i want to see your calculations with explanations. Thats something i have always provided.

      Depressed his death was caused because somalis cant understand that finnish police is for all and he knew he did something what would cause slaughter in in his culture.

      Nimimerkillä: i was thrown in jail because i had disagreement with gypsy and managed to hit him and leave a mark. Both polices were white like me.

      It didnt matter that they attacked me and i defended myself, that didnt go in court tho.

  5. Peter

    *If you’d had you’d notice that I do not defend anybody for their racist, xenophobia or otherwise bigoted acts, be they verbal or physical.

    Sorry for the typo 😉

  6. Peter

    I am asking you to make a statement that you find any racist is despicable regardless of the passport he/she holds or the color of his/her skin.

    Again, sorry. I’ll remember to proof read next time! 😉

  7. justicedemon

    Hannu

    And of course somalis are target of police stop, it would be stupid to not stop them. “we are looking illegal immigrants who just came, lets stop this native finn…..”

    This is another of your racist lies that has been thoroughly debunked before on this blog. The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants in Finland at any one time are not Somalis, and it is therefore manifestly disproportionate to stop any Somali on the grounds that he or she might be an illegal immigrant. It is far more likely that an illegal immigrant will be from Russia or North America.

    You deliberately ignore the fact that millions of foreigners visit Finland every year and that overstaying a visitor’s visa or visa exemption period is by far the most common form of unlawful residence.

    So why the pathological desire to lie about such things, Hannu? What happened to the myth of Finnish honesty?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hannu, why not start to learn a new word in English: racial profiling. I think it would be very important for you to begin to grasp the problem. Here is a good place to start: http://wp.me/p4UBR-jd

  8. Depressed 4 Reason

    Hannu: Now you lied, no one was killed in Oulu and no one barged in his apartment or to him. They tried to kick his door, unsuccelfully, and instead of calling police somali committed what i would call darvin awards

    No you’re lying. Those finns caused his death. They tried to barge his house and the youngester panicked had no opition but to try to save his life by trying to jump neighbors balcony but failed to his death. So i am asking you who caused his death if not those who tried to barge in to his house and probably beat him to death? Hannu if you think coming here and twisting events that happened in your way will work here, you’re wrong my friend it wont work but rather you will get tired on it EVENTUALLY!!

  9. Mark

    D4R

    It’s clear to everyone what kind of justice Hannu supports. He’s a supporter of thugs. He’s quite happy to see an immigrant ‘get his ass kicked’ for harrassing a woman.

    Here, Hannu, here is a definition for you:

    To lynch: To punish (a person) without legal process or authority.

    What happened in Oulu was an attempted lynching, and the man tried to escape, but only to his death. The fact that Hannu blames the victim as some kind of recipient for a Darwin Award absolutely disgusts me. That he can trivialise the death in this way is disgusting.

    It is quite clear from his writings here that Hannu is a thug.

  10. justicedemon

    Mark

    The indications here are that Hannu is only an Internet thug. Confronted with a real immigrant and a real problem, he tries to help just as you or I would.

    Perhaps thug with wet pants would be a more accurate description.

  11. Andy

    PETER. Listen very carefully.

    Do not make an issue out of this, more than it already is. Finns are violent people, get used to that or try to make a difference yourself. Somalis commit /1000 people 56.92. Irakis 54.97 and Finns 4,77 violent crimes in year 2008. So statistically Somalis do 15 times more violence than the Finns.

    As we do not know yet what exactly happened and why, then you should keep in the nonsense you are feeding. For instance if someone threatens life of my beloved ones, I will also break the door. If he decides to jump, his choice.

    On what do you base you allegations on the somalies? Is it because they are statistically, robberers and assaulters? Is it that’s why they are harassad by the police? Who do you prefer to believe a thief/gangster or the law enforcement?

    KUUKKUU WAKE WAKE

  12. Andy

    2 many ifs PETER. Let the investigators do their job in 1 of the least corrupted countries in the world and then we will see. Since we know that somalies are big (statistically seen) gangstas, then why don’t you go and preach lawjesuzations to them. 3 (actually only 2) murders will take a long time to recap the ratio 1:15 that the somalis are in advantage. If you wanna fix the problem, address it first. Somalis are the problem, not the finns.

    • Migrant Tales

      Are you sure about what you are saying? We have debated this issue so many times it isn’t funny. Check out our threads, especially JusticeDemon’s, who will set you straight.

      These so-called statistics that you bring to us may work on sites like Hommaforum or Scripta but not here.

  13. Andy

    PETER. keep ur talk short, we don’t get ur point. we don’t know yet what happened.

    Correction on the previous. The Somalis commit 11 times more violence than FInns. I used quick math..

    Another question is. Peter, when you go to a foreign country-do you go there to steal or to play by the rules?

    In fact when you look at the Somalis wordlwide, it seems that the other countrie’s police force are as intolerant as the FInnish. Shame on the world’s police!

  14. Andy

    Migrant Tales and PETER

    In Finland you can’t get convicted of racism, regardless of passport in posession. No paragraph exists for that in Finland, nor in the UN.

    Do your homework before starting to complain about racism.

  15. Mark

    Andy

    Finns are violent people, get used to that or try to make a difference yourself.

    I think the opinion of ordinary Finns is that violence is not a good thing in Finnish society.

    Somalis commit /1000 people 56.92. Irakis 54.97 and Finns 4.77 violent crimes in year 2008. So statistically Somalis do 15 times more violence than the Finns.

    Do you know that violent crime normally means murder, rape, robbery and aggravated assault. These figures seem rather high for that category of crime. Care to comment?

    Source? What do you mean by ‘violent crimes’? Do you mean assaults? As there were about 5000 Somalis in Finland, that would put the figure at 250. Is that arrests (i.e. accused), or does it mean convictions?

    Does this statistic reflect arrest rates, in which case, are police arresting Somalis disproportionately more often, in the same way they are more likely to stop and question Somalis? That raises questions of whether the bar for arrests is much lower for Somalis. Of course, an arrest does not mean a conviction, so it needs to be made clear what these figures relate to. Have you even bothered to question these figures Andy or did you read them in a forum somewhere and took them as read?

    The percentage for Finns would make it 25,000 whatever it is that you have calculated. So, in terms of actual crime in Finland, there is a 100 times more ‘violent’ crime being committed by Finns, but you want to focus on Somalis? Why?

    Second, Somalis here in 2008 were mostly young men, which as a demographic, are more violent than other sections of the population. For example, it’s not uncommon for half of arrests for violent crime are of people aged 16-25. If you take the population in Finland aged between 16-25, it’s about 650,000. Now if we take half of this 25,000 as being in the same age bracket, 16-25, then that means 12,500 violent crime (arrests?) for a population size of 650,000, gives an arrest rate of 19,23.

    Now, take the fact that about half of that Finnish population were women, who commit far less violent crime than men, usually in about an eight to one ration, then we must make further adjustments. Thus 12500/9*8 = 11,111 male offenders for a population of roughly 325,000 individuals. That gives a violent crime rate of 34.18 per 1000 for Finns in an equivalent demographic.

    The other factor you have to also take into account is the rural–urban distinction. For example, it is not uncommon for robbery to be 50 times more common in urban areas than rural areas. That means, young men living in cities are more likely to commit robbery. As most Somalis were put into city areas around Finland, we should compare them similarly to local populations. As about 3.8 million people live in urban areas in Finland, that equates to about 76% of the population at a very non-conservative estimate (Statistics Finland). So, take our 11,111 male population and lob off another 24% and we have a population of about 247000 young men in urban areas, doing about 50 times more violent crime than in rural areas. Okay, so 1 in 50 pois from arrests of 11111 is = 10893 arrests, giving a violent crime rate of 44.10 per 1000 of equivalent Finns. That’s a little closer to the 56.92 you offered.

    On top of that, young Somali men are also poorer statistically than your average Finn. As it has been shown beyond much doubt that violent crime is associated with poverty, then we could and should compare Somali crime against the poorer sections of Finnish society. In other words, our comparable population of young Finnish rural and poor young men is going to be even smaller. As the population aged 16-25 are over twice as likely to be unemployed, let’s assume that 20% of this demographic are poor, compared to about 50% of Somalis. So, let’s reduce our demographic groups accordingly, assuming just for the sake of argument (not true I know) that poverty was responsible for all violent crime: 2500 Somalis for 250 crimes vs. 49400 for 10893 crimes.

    The equivalent rates, taking into account age, area of domicile, and economic position, each of which have been consistently shown to significantly affect violent crime rates:

    Finns: violent crimes 220 per 1000 of population
    Somalis: 100 per 1000 of population

    So you see, when you really start to compare like with like, you actually find that a comparable population of Finns commit about twice as much violent crime as the Somali population.

    These are rough figures, and I doubt they are accurate to a CI of 20%, but it should give a good idea of how easily bald statistics can distort the picture of crime.

    Do I really need to reply to the rest of the rubbish you have posted Andy? I think not! If you put as much work into checking your figures as I have, then I wouldn’t have to write this. :/

  16. Mark

    Just to be clear what I have done, I’ll rewrite this slightly to illustrate the ‘like for like’ comparison:

    Finns: violent crimes 220 per 1000 male population, young, urban, poor
    Somalis: 100 per 1000 male population, young, urban, poor

    I’m still skeptical of these figures as they seem high, but maybe violent crime is high in Finland.

    Note: Ratios of male to female crime rates and urban to rural crime were taken from national statistics or large study reviews. Likewise, using unemployment as a proxy for ‘poverty’ is perfectly justifiable for a quick and dirty calculation like this.

  17. Depressed 4 Reason

    Andy: Do not make an issue out of this, more than it already is. Finns are violent people, get used to that or try to make a difference yourself. Somalis commit /1000 people 56.92. Irakis 54.97 and Finns 4,77 violent crimes in year 2008. So statistically Somalis do 15 times more violence than the Finns.

    Hay man, we dont need your bull statistics, you cant take that back to your deluded hommaforum gangs. You guys seriously need a medic fixation. Bring us your source of Somalis crime statistic or any other crimes made by minorities.

    Andy: As we do not know yet what exactly happened and why, then you should keep in the nonsense you are feeding. For instance if someone threatens life of my beloved ones, I will also break the door. If he decides to jump, his choice.

    We already know who brought nonsense here and is feeding one. Now tell us why are you giving other excuses to those murdered immigrants committed by finns, other than a hatecrime? i think the reason is you dont believe hatecrime to exist in finland do you?

    Andy: On what do you base you allegations on the somalies? Is it because they are statistically, robberers and assaulters? Is it that’s why they are harassad by the police? Who do you prefer to believe a thief/gangster or the law enforcement?

    Andy it’s very stupid of you to generalize a whole lot of people, for instance when i go read Iltalehti or Iltasanomat, i read everyday that a finn murdered his family, a finn molested his child, a finn killed his own parents, a finn robbed a taxidriver, a finn nursery killed elderly people in the hospital etc etc. But i dont go around generalizing all finns to be, child molesters, killers, murderers etc etc. Why do you then generalize us Somalis? The hell with your statistics man, anybody can rip statistics out of their as**, but that doesnt mean it’s true.

  18. Depressed 4 Reason

    Andy: Since we know that somalies are big (statistically seen) gangstas, then why don’t you go and preach lawjesuzations to them.

    Statistic in your deluded minds . I kno what type of person you’re, ive been studying your kinds of racist in paltalks like Iltalehti and Iltasanomat. You guys Don’t have life to live so what you guys do is ,you open racist threads everyday attacking Somalis or other immigrants you don’t like, just to feel superiority or belonging to some people. Without us Andy you wouldn’t have a life. Who would you attack if there were no Somalis in finland? maybe swedish speaking finns?

  19. Depressed 4 Reason

    Andy: In fact when you look at the Somalis wordlwide, it seems that the other countrie’s police force are as intolerant as the FInnish. Shame on the world’s police!

    There are many countries where Somalis are doing good, for instance near country would be Sweden. They’re doing Good in other countries, becus other countries have less deluded racist bigoted lies spreading people like you. unfortunately Finland has plenty of your kinds, wich is really sad. What you’re doing is, you’re creating gaps between you and non finns, at the end of the day think about it, is that beneficial for you.

  20. Depressed 4 Reason

    Somebody in Hommaforum told andy a rumor wich is a lie, that somalis are the biggest criminals in finland lol, so he is going around with excitement spreading those lies, he really believes those lies. Shame on you andy.

  21. Andy

    are you really naive Peter. Do I mean suspects, of course not. U seem to lack the fundamentals of common sense. Convictions of course.

    I know the presented statistics are verified, you are allowed to interpret them however you want. And since you know that my sources are wrong, present your own correct ones then.

    There are many countries where Somalis do good. Sure, in Sweden the politicians were asked ”why do somalies don’t succeed in Sweden?” The answer was, they lack opportunities there and want to go to the UK and USA. The figures are more or less the same in the UK as in Finland and Sweden regarding Somali unemployment. What can be noted that 1 out of 4 gets diploma from compulsory school in Sweden.

    Though, in the US they do a little better. The Somali cabdrivers have only left 5000 passengers at airport because they carried alcohol in their bag or they had a guidedog. When Somalis upload a video on youtube where they are assaulting people biking by is of course up to you Peter to interpret if it does good for the already bad reputation or not.

    BTW, I understand all languages so it does not matter in which language you present them.

  22. Peter

    Mark you are correct we have another troll visiting us. 😉

    Andy Please help me to break one of the stereotypes about trolls, but is it true that you guys live under bridges? 😆

    And now to serious matters… (I’ll keep this as short as possible as you seem to despise and lack the capability of understanding longer and fully articulated arguments!)

    (1) As Mark has already demonstrated, your ‘statistics’ are inaccurate. Granted, Somalis in Finland (many of whom are Finnish citizens) do unfortunately appear to be overly represented in the population for some types of ‘violent crime’ (i.e., robberies). However, they are also amongst the most discriminated against in our society along with others such as the Roma, who coincidentally also appear as prevalent in robbery statistics from 2005. If we look at the socio-economic backgrounds of ‘ethnic’ Finns, we also see that those more marginalized (i.e., lacking employment, education, etc.) account for the overwhelming majority of robberies amongst this ‘group’.

    (2) I am not preaching “law jesuzations [sic]” to anyone Andy. I was informing Hannu that the actions of his “idiots” can, legally speaking, be considered constructive manslaughter. Look this up, you might learn something!
    As for the young Somali man in question “threatening the life of a beloved one,” obviously you have some information on this case that the police may be interested in… or are you just making prejudgements on the basis of your own bigotry? I fear the latter.

    (3) You ask whether “when you go to a foreign country-do you go there to steal or to play by the rules?” Like the majority of people, I seek to obey the rules wherever I go. However, there are a small minority of persons who do not. It’s dangerous to stereotype and stigmatize a whole ‘group’ as simply traveling to other countries to commit crimes. This will simply further stigmatize these people (many of whom are good and upstanding persons) in the eyes of the majority population, leading to further marginalization.
    Have you watched the show Tallinna on TV5? If so, based upon your viewing, do you stereotype all Finns as “petty criminals” committing crimes such as public nudity, drunk and disorderly conduct, and public urination?

    Your hatred may be encouraged on Homma Forum or Scripta, but it has NO place here!

  23. Peter

    “Are you really naive Peter?” No Andy, I am not. Far from it. By the way, I am also not Depressed 4 Reason. Check the “names” of those you seek to address.

  24. Andy

    “ if threatening the life of a beloved one,” was transferred into “threatening the life of a beloved one,” .

    I see the usage of ”if” is used a little how you want. You can make whatever statement. Keep on the good work guys!

    Sure, I said that Finns are criminals earlier on. But still, how is it possible to have an overrepresentation of some ethnic groups in some crime-statistics that are already high statistics?

    WHo has bias? I said that let the police do their job, but these intellectualls here already start this, if and how and this is and so forth. COnstructive?

  25. Mark

    Andy

    First of all, get my name right, it’s Mark. I guess you your thinking skills are about as good as your reading skills and your statistics skills.

    I know the presented statistics are verified, you are allowed to interpret them however you want. And since you know that my sources are wrong, present your own correct ones then.

    🙂 That makes me smile. So where is your source? I’m allowed to interpret however I want? My adjustment was not an interpretation, but a proper consideration of the characteristics of population: It’s pointless comparing the violent crime rates of young men with people aged over 85, for instance.

    Yet, that is exactly the effect of presenting a bald figure, like you have. You must adjust for age, for area of living, for sex (given that males are 8 times more likely to be offendors of violent crime). Likewise, given the high correlation of violent crime with poverty, you have to take this into account too, so that you are comparing a poor Somali population with a poor Finnish population to see how they are responding to their circumstances.

    So, when you compare like with like, young Finnish men who are unemployed and living in urban areas, my calculations make young Finnish men twice as likely to be involved in violent crime. That’s not simply ‘interpretation’, Andy, that is proper consideration of the characteristics of population.

    Do I mean suspects, of course not. U seem to lack the fundamentals of common sense.

    🙂 So your response to someone taking the time to ask you to clarify what you mean because international statistics on crime are often given as arrest rates and not convictions is to say that I lack the fundamentals of common sense. Wow. 🙂 However, you had absolutely nothing to say about the common sense of taking into account the demographic characteristics in the statistics. Funny that, Andy. 🙂

  26. Mark

    Peter

    Granted, Somalis in Finland (many of whom are Finnish citizens) do unfortunately appear to be overly represented in the population for some types of ‘violent crime’ (i.e., robberies)

    I’m not sure how much that would really stand up to proper scrutiny. Like I’ve said, we cannot compare violent crime rates of young men with old women aged 85+, of course the young men will be found to be more violent. If the Somali population has been predominantly male, predominantly young, predominantly living in urban areas and predominantly poor, then it’s this section of the Finnish population that we must compare them to if we are to find out if they are any more criminal.

    The fact that the police do not do proper analysis of the statistics is sadly a reflection of a passive institutionalized racism. Given the sensitivity of crime rates and their openness to skewing, misrepresentation and abuse, it is incumbent of the police researchers to do their own analysis and make it very clear how to properly interpret the figures. They don’t appear to do that, although I’ve seen occasional mention of ‘well-known statistical biases’ in Finnish police reports, without actually spelling them or telling the public what their effect is on the interpretation of crime rates.

    I think it is a real shame that these immigrant groups are being depicted as criminals like this when in fact they may well be much less likely to be perpetrators than a comparable Finnish population, when you take out the old Finnish ladies aged 85+, so to speak. At the very least, we deserve proper investigation of these ‘statistics’, instigated by politicians, whose responsibility it is to protect immigrants from this kind of institutional racism.

  27. Mark

    Andy

    WHo has bias? I said that let the police do their job, but these intellectualls here already start this, if and how and this is and so forth. COnstructive?

    You really make me smile, Andy. Absolutely true to form of populist / fascist. As soon as the conversation reveals your use of statistics to be an abuse, you start to talk about ‘intellectuals’, and obfuscate the common sense that tells you that you cannot compare young men with old ladies in terms of violent crime rates.

    What on earth does this mean…’already start this, if and how and this is and so forth…’ Are your really convincing yourself that this nonsense is somehow a valid argument in the debate about immigration?

    Do you not feel even the slightest compulsion to re-evaluate your opinions now that your abuse of statistics has been clarified to you?

    Well, that’s no surprise. Folks like you do not have any intellectual integrity. You are not incensed about violent crime, because I’m sure you don’t go into forums discussing Finland and Finnishness demanding that Finns deal with the violent crime committed by Finns, which is, by your own figures, 100 times more common. Nope, you are not bothered about violent crime or about trying to do anything about it. You simply want to use the statistics to bash immigrants.

    The simple fact is, take one of your little sticks away and you’ll pick up another one, for sure!

  28. Andy

    The fact that the police do not do proper analysis of the statistics is sadly a reflection of a passive institutionalized racism. And the evidence of them not doing so is…

    If it was so, is the police or the politicians to blame?

    Do you have prove for the age diversion. As it is also true that Somalis don’t come one, they come the whole family. The state enables them financially to travel from Somalia. Though the life expectansy might be lower for Somalis.

    So, you wise people. WHy did the SOmali jump out of the window, was it bc he was innocent?

  29. Mark

    Andy

    And the evidence of them not doing so is…

    You cannot prove a negative, Andy, that’s impossible. As it is, I don’t know where you got your statistics from on Somali crime, and until you produce a source, I cannot properly evaluate it. However, I can take your figures and use basic statistical information (Statistics Finland) for 2008 on the demographics of the Finnish population.

    If it was so, is the police or the politicians to blame?

    Well, a mixture of both. If the police have offered statistics on violent crime based on ethnicity per 1000 of population, then they are also duty bound to explain the limitations of that kind of statistic. Nevertheless, the fact that crime statistics are so often abused in debates about the ‘criminality’ of immigrant groups also demands that politicians address the problem. It would not be a surprise if there was some difference, given that poverty is more widespread among immigrants.

    Do you have prove for the age diversion.

    Well, ‘proof’ is not in the vocabulary of statistics, Andy. Which one, the 1 in 8 violent crimes are committed by women? Or the fact that the majority of early Somalis immigrants were male? That’s a well-known fact, but exact figures I do not have. I’d be interested to know them. Even if you take a 50/50 split for gender among Somalis, that would only give a violent crime rate of 222 per 1000 Somali, compared to 220 for comparable Finns, i.e. almost identical.

    As it is also true that Somalis don’t come one, they come the whole family. The state enables them financially to travel from Somalia. Though the life expectansy might be lower for Somalis.

    In 2007, assuming your figures were for 2008, there were only 267 reunifications. I cannot see that having a great impact.

    I think that for things like robbery, there are some specific problems in the Somali community that are unique to the community. But then again, you could say that too about Finnish communities, where drunkenness, domestic violence (regardless of the gender of the perpetrator) and long-term unemployment are also significant social problems for native Finns.

    The point is, the Somali community are not unique in facing problems. Not only that, but many in the Somali community are well-aware of the problems and have set up resources to tackle them, in combination with Finnish police and local welfare authorities. This is normal, sensible and exactly what should be done. Some of the challenges are exactly because young Somalis are typically more ‘integrated’ that their parents and this causes conflicts and sometimes dislocation from family support structures. However, this has been the situation in Finland too, though perhaps it was more pronounced in the transition from the 60s and 70s. It’s a normal curve of adjustment, except that you expect Somalis to somehow do what Finns were not able to do, which is simply to avoid the problems of ‘generation gaps’.

  30. Mark

    Andy

    Just to illustrate the issue with robberies in Somali communities, in the mid-2000s much was made of the fact that a fifth of robberies in the Helsinki area were committed by Somalis youths, when they only made up a small percentage of the population. That sounds terrible, and resulted in a strong backlash against all Somali youth. It then turns out that that statistics was mostly the work of about 20 youths.

    So, 20 kids, aged 17-20, joining a gang and causing problems that affected many hundreds of other Somali youth who were quite normal law-abiding citizens. Not only that, but Somali youth would be stopped on the street by Finns and asked ‘have you done any robberies?’ What kind of atmosphere does that create? Others were beaten up in Helsinki after being accused by strangers of being ‘Somali thieves’. The result is stigmatization of a whole generation of young Somalis. An overreaction, perhaps? Just maybe….

  31. justicedemon

    Mark

    We’ve been down this road before concerning comparisons of like with like and rational analysis of data sources, but a “pearls before swine” word of warning is in place. As I commented here last summer:

    It has long been obvious to me that the core support of PS comes from an epähikke element that cannot reason beyond a single line argument and is therefore prone to accept any fallacy with a two-line refutation or any claim that is seductively facile, but essentially unverifiable. This is why we no longer hear the old lines that were familiar in the 1980s about immigrants stealing our jobs and causing unemployment, but now hear assertions that immigrants are work shy benefit fraudsters. It also explains why it is possible to lead a PS supporter patiently through the refutation of some outlandish prejudice or mischaracterisation and secure agreement on this matter, only to see the same person repeating the offence again a few days later.

    All you really need to do at this level is apply the same bullshit statistical “methods” to show things that get up the racist troll’s nose (for example that the only honest bank manager is a foreigner, as Finnish citizens are responsible for 100 per cent of serious economic crime in Finland), or point out that the same methods have shown that Finns were a criminal element in Sweden in the 1960s and 70s (En Finne igen). Then there is the point that this entire racist “analysis” has not changed since Der ewige Jude. We are merely listening to Joseph Goebbels again with superficial editing.

  32. Depressed 4 Reason

    Andy: There are many countries where Somalis do good. Sure, in Sweden the politicians were asked ”why do somalies don’t succeed in Sweden?” The answer was, they lack opportunities there and want to go to the UK and USA. The figures are more or less the same in the UK as in Finland and Sweden regarding Somali unemployment. What can be noted that 1 out of 4 gets diploma from compulsory school in Sweden.

    Andy where is the link, present us some. We can’t take only your hommaforum horse crap. I AM A SOMALI AND I WOULD NEVER DROP NO PASSENGERS, BECUS THEY HAVE A DOG, OR ARE DRUNK OR EVEN A SWINE WITH THEM, SO YOU’RE A LIAR.Plus i have plenty Somali cab drivers who wouldn’t mind taking drunk passengers, im sure they wouldnt mind taking you as a passenger, after one of your wet weekends.:) It’s obvious that you have a personal issues with darkskin people like Somalis, becus you’re a racist and you’re going to get exposed.

    I always wonder what’s with you racist sick obsession with us (Somalis). Everytime i visit one of your racist paltalks in Iltalehti or Iltasanomat, you guys are on us. This your obsession is getting alittle bit bizarre.

  33. Mark

    D4R

    I always wonder what’s with you racist sick obsession with us (Somalis).

    I have always thought that building a group identity can be done in one of two ways: either by inclusion or exclusion. When you build group identity based on inclusion, you look at what you have in common, and that defines your shared identity to some extent.

    Then, you can build a group identity by focusing on excluding others, but to do this, you have to build up scales of difference and to make those differences somehow hegemonic, i.e. we are better than them and we are more powerful.

    In that kind of hegemonic identity, the motivation is to maintain power and privilege.

  34. Depressed 4 Reason

    Andy: So, you wise people. WHy did the SOmali jump out of the window, was it bc he was innocent?

    His death was caused by a Finn who were about to barge in to his house, i dont know for sure what was the motive but, i suspect they were racist bigoted like you.

  35. Depressed 4 Reason

    Mark: Then, you can build a group identity by focusing on excluding others, but to do this, you have to build up scales of difference and to make those differences somehow hegemonic, i.e. we are better than them and we are more powerful.

    You said it best. Like i said before these racists live by us. without us they wouldnt have life to live. It seems as tho their entire life is based on hating us. What a waste of energy resource. Instead of using their energy on something productive, they decided to spend it hating on us day by day.

  36. Andy

    LIAR LIAR LIAR… and liar! Should I burn in hell? Or cut off my testicles and feed them to dogs and then burn in hell?

    you know plenty of people but not all. You probably don’t eat, work, sleep and do all things together with these guys? How can you know what they are doing and when?You can’t. The same as I would say, Finns don’t drink bc my friends DO NOT drink. I see a drunk guy everyday in the street but since my Finnish friends don’t drink then no Finns drink. Isn’t that absurd?

    I USED TO DRIVE TAXI MYSELF, when I studied. I know what it is like, you do not refuse customers if you want to earn money. 🙂 some though don’t apply this.

    In fact it has nothing to do with the color of the skin. It is what is inside the skin that matters. I ran the other day to the tram, a black guy pushed to button outside n held the tram there.

    -Kiitos,-no problem- have a nice day-u too cheers. I thought, what a nice guy, this guy is able to pull through in the most of the places in the world. I have in fact also dated 2,5 black girls. 0,5 is for a mixed white and black.

    Here is about the school success. 1/4 Somalis get school leaving certificate.

    http://vgnt.se/tre-av-fyra-somalier-misslyckas-i-skolan/

    Do you know what is the ratio between Finns and foreigners for hate speech/discrimination?

    here one link (not verified) saying that immigrants are convicted in ratio 1:10 for hate speech, discrimination. A few other inofficial sources say more or less the same. IMMIGRANTS ARE RACISTS NOT FINNS, this is plain math guys and this is SCANDAL. And this applies also to all ages. You can sit in your chair and shout, it takes no more. Or may be u can be in ur bed with a microphone with the window open?

    http://www.vauva.fi/keskustelut/alue/2/viestiketju/1391928/miksi_maahanmuuttajat_tekevat_rasistisia_rikoksia_

    In regards of Somali demographics, there is no reason to think that it is different than in Somalia. As we know, Finland pays for the travel and so forth. Thus, they represent a population, not single individuals. However this practice may have been different in the past, but to show that your argument is valid then of course statistics of gender and age and so forth would be needed. 267 family reunifications. I do not know but guess that you can multiply it with 9,67 as the official nr is. As long as no other statistics are provided then we go with what we have, right?

    here is one of Somalis from 2005. In robberies they do 12 % of the total robberies. In 2007 Somalis consisted of 2,1 % of Finnish population. If they were inline with the FInnish population they would do 2,1 % or may be a little less since it was 2007. Well you can say that they do 6 times more robberies, regardless if they are somebody’s friends or not. Typically they rob people when they are themselves at least two or more.

    http://www.tiede.fi/keskustelut/viewtopic.php?p=949322#p949322

    I know one girl that had to move bc a somali junky wanted to marry her, she said no and he threatened her life. He was not convicted, but we are still ”looking” for him.

    Since vendetta is justified to violent predators I do not see the current incidents particularily surprising. It would have come sooner or later from either side.

    And it is not about who is wrong or right and so forth. What counts is how to get a good life for everybody. Unfortunately you need to know the criminals in this process in order to help them. I doubt that they help themselves to accuse the police of harassment etc.

  37. justicedemon

    Hannu

    his death was caused because Somalis can’t understand…

    How come the mere attempt to write such a sentence doesn’t teach you that you can’t hide your meaning behind subjectless expressions in English?

    Look at it this way: would the victim have fallen to his death if the three Finns had not been breaking down his door at the time?

    The circumstances of the first Oulu case support the conclusion that this was felony murder or felony manslaughter. The attempt at forced entry to the victim’s home was a criminal act, and the victim’s death was a consequence of that criminal act. This parallels the classic bar exam question concerning criminal liability when an elderly occupant is merely startled to death by a burglar. On your explanation, Hannu, the occupant’s death “was caused because old people have a weak constitution”, but no court of law would take such a view.

  38. Laputis

    Mark, but there is one flip-flop with your explanations about high crime rate among Somalians. OK, I accept explanation about f.e. most of Somali people in Finland consist of young males. But one other explanation just doesn’t make sense to me – “correlation” between poverty and crime rates.
    Listen, I am coming from an ethnic group which is generally poor. Yes my ethnic group is outcasted in Russia, and many people representing it are really, really poor (they live in real third world conditions). But my ethnic group is not known for high crime rates. Stealing, robbying and other similar crime acts are unusual. Russians are much more into such crimes, even though they quite often live better. and they hold real power (political, economical etc.).
    The thing here is about culture, and, quite likely, also about religion. My ethnic group is more like Buddhists, many people believe in next lives, rebirth etc. Material things thus are secondary. I’ve noticed Muslims are much more greedy. And it applies also to Somalis, who usually are Muslims. The Muslims (not only Somalis) often love all that bling-blang, show-off and “cool” items. If they are poor and can’t afford to buy those things, they can acquire them by help of crime.

  39. Depressed 4 Reason

    Laputis: Mark, but there is one flip-flop with your explanations about high crime rate among Somalians. OK, I accept explanation about f.e. most of Somali people in Finland consist of young males. But one other explanation just doesn’t make sense to me – “correlation” between poverty and crime rates.
    Listen, I am coming from an ethnic group which is generally poor. Yes my ethnic group is outcasted in Russia, and many people representing it are really, really poor (they live in real third world conditions). But my ethnic group is not known for high crime rates. Stealing, robbying and other similar crime acts are unusual. Russians are much more into such crimes, even though they quite often live better. and they hold real power (political, economical etc.).
    The thing here is about culture, and, quite likely, also about religion. My ethnic group is more like Buddhists, many people believe in next lives, rebirth etc. Material things thus are secondary. I’ve noticed Muslims are much more greedy. And it applies also to Somalis, who usually are Muslims. The Muslims (not only Somalis) often love all that bling-blang, show-off and “cool” items. If they are poor and can’t afford to buy those things, they can acquire them by help of crime.

    There you go with your prejudices against Somalis and Muslims. Look, those Somalis who commit crimes, do not represent all Somalis, just like your people do not represent, the ones who commit crime in your community. People are individuals, Somalis are individuals also moslims too. every ethnic group has their bad apple, generaliing people is highly stupid and irrational. It’s highly offensive to immigrants, that you belong to them, and at the same time, you attack them, with your irrational prejudices on mind. Calling all Muslim and Somalis as greedy is stupid, i hope you to drop that thinking.

  40. Hannu

    Justicedemon im 182cm, “dont have to fear” build, bald and wearing normal clothes but that wasnt idea, idea was how he would response.

  41. Hannu

    Idea was that i have friend who likes army clothes, is 195cm, bald, really muscular. He is priest who currently is in africa and kindest guy i know. As he said “my body is my temple and i will keep it fit because i believe for it”.

  42. Andy

    hmm, what did the social bureau think of the robbing? It is all available online for you if you want. They were concerned of course. So is it strange or normal that people react to overepresentation in crime? is it also equally strange that municipalities take up measures? Thus, meaning we are all idiots. Or did they also fail to take into consideration the dempgraphic diversion. Look at somali crime or somali rikokset or use wtf language ever u will have results. Of course if you want to beleive the data offered to you. There is also wikipedia on crimes for somali finland.

    Here you can see that Turku abolishes your stigma that asylum seekers are boys. 70 % are girls of the so called foster child busniess. sorry to disappoint you and let down ur hard work.

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/2010/08/hs_somalit_hakevat_kasvattilapsia_suomeen_1938983.html?origin=rss

  43. justicedemon

    Andy

    Did you understand the very crude analysis that Mark provided of your raw statistics? The aim was to ensure that like is compared with like. Do you think that this matters?

    If not, then how do you account for the fact that 100 per cent of serious economic crimes in Finland (seven-figure embezzlement and antitrust offences, defrauding creditors in bankruptcy, etc.) are committed by Finnish citizens? No foreigner has ever been convicted of such an offence in Finland. Not even once. Not ever. Period. Doesn’t this simply show that Finns are essentially less honest than foreigners in Finland? Doesn’t it prove that the best bank manager is a foreigner?

    Remember – any attempt to explain this finding by trying to compare like with like will be just too damn smart for you to understand.

    For an even easier example that even the epähiket can follow, consider that no foreigner has ever been convicted of an offence in office at the High Court of Impeachment. It follows directly from this that the most trustworthy Finnish government ministers must also be foreigners. Remember we are too dumb to understand any smart statistical tricks here.

  44. Laputis

    Depressed for reason: “There you go with your prejudices against Somalis and Muslims. Look, those Somalis who commit crimes, do not represent all Somalis, just like your people do not represent, the ones who commit crime in your community. People are individuals, Somalis are individuals also moslims too. every ethnic group has their bad apple, generaliing people is highly stupid and irrational. It’s highly offensive to immigrants, that you belong to them, and at the same time, you attack them, with your irrational prejudices on mind. Calling all Muslim and Somalis as greedy is stupid, i hope you to drop that thinking.”

    Yes, I have some prejudices against Muslims, as many people from my ethnic group have 🙂 The thing is, we are something like Buddhists, but some of our neigbour ethnic groups are Muslims. And then we have Orthodox Christian Russians, who impose power on us.
    I noticed, and also other people have noticed, that people with different religious backgrounds have different understandings about life. Muslims and Christians indeed tend to be more greedy than Buddhists, due the specifics of teachings about life.
    Religions often give moral background – what is right and what is wrong. I’ve noticed that it’s hardest for Buddhist background people to do any crime. These people often believe in reincarnations and things like “karma”. That is a very powerful way how to have any crimes prevented.
    Abrachamic religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) have understanding of “one, single life”, and I think many people, who follow these religions, just try to enjoy their lives at their best. Perhaps “enjoyment” could be the main rule of those people. But I am not saying that everybody are like that. I think many people care about things like “sins”, “hell” and “paradise”. Which are not very believable sounding, by the way. In any case, there are reasons why people, who follow Abrachamic religions are more greedy than those, who follow Buddha teachings.
    Please, do not take my words as intend to say that all Muslims or Christians are so greedy that they would like to steal or rob. Of course not. But you have to understand that there are differences in attitude toward life and material goods between those, who are Buddhists, who are Muslims, and who are Christians.

    P.S. I myself am agnostic or atheist. Even though I have kinda of Buddhist religious background, I find faults in some aspects in Buddha teachings. And Abrachamic religions are almost beyond reach to me – I hardly understand them.

  45. Laputis

    Perhaps I should better name myself as “agnostic” rather than “atheist”. Because some atheists, the communists, have been destroying temples and shrines of our religion. The communists were putting in prisons and killing the monks, shamans and all other people, who were dedicated to religions.
    Even though I am “non-believer”, I have respect towards religions and people, who follow them. IMO what communists did was a terrible assault.

  46. D4R

    Laputis: Yes, I have some prejudices against Muslims, as many people from my ethnic group have The thing is, we are something like Buddhists, but some of our neigbour ethnic groups are Muslims. And then we have Orthodox Christian Russians, who impose power on us.
    I noticed, and also other people have noticed, that people with different religious backgrounds have different understandings about life. Muslims and Christians indeed tend to be more greedy than Buddhists, due the specifics of teachings about life.
    Religions often give moral background – what is right and what is wrong. I’ve noticed that it’s hardest for Buddhist background people to do any crime. These people often believe in reincarnations and things like “karma”. That is a very powerful way how to have any crimes prevented.
    Abrachamic religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) have understanding of “one, single life”, and I think many people, who follow these religions, just try to enjoy their lives at their best. Perhaps “enjoyment” could be the main rule of those people. But I am not saying that everybody are like that. I think many people care about things like “sins”, “hell” and “paradise”. Which are not very believable sounding, by the way. In any case, there are reasons why people, who follow Abrachamic religions are more greedy than those, who follow Buddha teachings.
    Please, do not take my words as intend to say that all Muslims or Christians are so greedy that they would like to steal or rob. Of course not. But you have to understand that there are differences in attitude toward life and material goods between those, who are Buddhists, who are Muslims, and who are Christians.

    I really don’t care much about religion, i myself don’t follow religion. I don’t understand your logic of saying that, religion defines people of who they’re. Ofcourse religion can have effect on peoples mind, but at the end of the day, people get hysterical for no reason. There are laws in Finland and everyone should abide, be a moslim or budhist. If someone commits a crime then, it becomes a police case, there is no reason to stigmatize and oppress people of who they’re or what religion they follow.

    Laputis you need to get over your prejudice, prejudice will only put a gap between you and other wonderful people. Think about, the people you’d meet, or the friends you’d have, from different backgrounds? being prejudice against people you don’t know will only alienate you.

    My concern is racism not religion.

  47. Mark

    Mark, but there is one flip-flop with your explanations about high crime rate among Somalians.

    Flip-flop? I thought that was beach footwear!

    OK, I accept explanation about f.e. most of Somali people in Finland consist of young males. But one other explanation just doesn’t make sense to me – “correlation” between poverty and crime rates.

    The correlation is well established. Check out the meta-analysis of Ching-Chi Hsieh & Pugh or Hannon & DeFina, the latter showing that poverty reduction in both black and white communities have been shown to reduce violent crime rates. My calculations used unemployment as a proxy for poverty. That is quite crude, as JD says, but it demonstrates that allowing high unemployment among some immigrant groups through discrimination only creates other problems for society.

    But you also have to remember it is not the only factor. It is not that being poor makes you commit violent crime. Rather, it adds pressure to an environment that already has several other pressures in it, many of them interrelated. Take gang dynamics – we all need to belong and we strive from the our first breath onwards to obtain power over the world. In situations of poverty, and it’s inherant powerlessness, then alternatives means of asserting a sense of power over the world or ‘neighbourhood’ are sometimes sought. In a Buddhist community, that assertiveness and development of ‘power’ might be directed much more inwardly than outwardly, Laputis, to a power over ones thoughts and emotions. What do you think? At least, to not let one’s thoughts and emotions have undue power over us.

    The thing here is about culture, and, quite likely, also about religion. My ethnic group is more like Buddhists, many people believe in next lives, rebirth etc. Material things thus are secondary. I’ve noticed Muslims are much more greedy. And it applies also to Somalis, who usually are Muslims.

    Well, if that were true, it is nothing to do with Islam. Many many quotes in the Koran are about the evils of greed.

    Sura 30, The Romans (Al-Room) [30:39]

    The usury that is practiced to increase some people’s wealth, does not gain anything at GOD. But if you give to charity, seeking GOD’s pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward manifold.

    The Muslims (not only Somalis) often love all that bling-blang, show-off and “cool” items. If they are poor and can’t afford to buy those things, they can acquire them by help of crime.

    Two things here Laputis. A love of jewellery or other symbols of status are not merely the preserve of Muslims. I mean, what is this obsession in the world with ties? Everyone in power is wearing one, big colourful ones, silk, cotton etc. I mean, it’s crazy. And what is it anyway if not an arrow pointing down at the genitals?!

    We all wear a uniform of some kind. It’s not a Muslim thing. Look at the Tibetan Thangkas, Laputis, they are always finished in the highest quality 24 carat gold and the finest paints. Take the range and beauty of mala beads, made out of bodhi seed, sandlewood, bone, amethyst, lapis, crystal, tiger eye, etc. The rarer the bead, the more ‘auspicious’ they are. If that isn’t some kind of ‘bling’, what is it? 🙂

  48. Andy

    justicedemon. and to Mark’s comment.

    Sure, there is usually a root in every problem. However, I find it quite coward to say that someone forced the offender into crime though this happens also. If one has a strong voice then often some people are affected. It’s like the guy next door where I live. His words are more or less like this,”didn’t I tell you not to do so?” or similar stuff is repeated over and over again. So should I adapt this conduct when my friends come over? This allegation is as absurd is it can be.

    I doubt that Migrant tales should discuss bank topics. I talked about the Finnish government, not indivuduals. Find statistics, I believe FInland is (the least corrupt countries) in top ten most of the times 2000-2011, but this might change. How do you measure least corrupt? You measure by comparing countries to one another, international studies.

    100 per cent of serious economic crimes in Finland. Well this is not hard to explain, Finns account for 95% or so for the total population in Finland so there is no great variation. What about the less serious economic crimes, for instance when foriegners sell pizzas to a prices that are never profitable? Do u get a receipt at a delivery? BTW, per cent means ‘by hundred’ in French and can be spelt either ‘per cent’ or ‘percent’. In English the correct spelling is ‘percent’.

    Based on this

    http://yle.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/2010/08/hs_somalit_hakevat_kasvattilapsia_suomeen_1938983.html?origin=rss

    and this

    http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/99166-al-erikoinen-etu-suomi-maksoi-600-pakolaiselle-1000-euron-lennon

    and the family unification policy it is hard to see that statistics would be loping. The logical thing would of course be to ask the disputers of the crime statistics for some evidence but I guess that’s hate speech.

  49. Mark

    Andy

    Here you can see that Turku abolishes your stigma that asylum seekers are boys. 70 % are girls of the so called foster child busniess. sorry to disappoint you and let down ur hard work.

    Nice to see you working hard to discredit my arguments, Andy, but i wasn’t born yesterday, mate.

    First, we were talking about figures from 2008, meaning they cover the period 2007. In that period, the granting of family reunification applications was quite low in numbers. Also, the 70% applications for girls reflects the demographic in Somalia, where boys have very often been abducted into militias and used of human shields. I expect the demographic of the Somali Diaspora will change over the next few years, if it hasn’t already. But like I said, even if we assume a 50/50 split of boys to girls in the Somali community, that would still give a violent crime rate that is almost identical to the native Finnish population. When you also take into account that the large number of robberies taking place are by a small number of people, that also must affect any interpretation of numbers.

    The simple fact is Andy that you have STILL not provided a source for your data. So it really is impossible to properly assess it. And yet you are moaning to me about my analysis. Give me the data source and I’ll give you a clear evaluation of it.

    It is all available online for you if you want.

    That is not ‘providing a source’ Andy! 😀

    There is also wikipedia on crimes for somali finland.

    Really?! Care to link? I cannot say that I have found crime rates by ethnicity or even language of offender on Wiki, but correct me if I’m wrong.

    So is it strange or normal that people react to overepresentation in crime? is it also equally strange that municipalities take up measures? Thus, meaning we are all idiots. Or did they also fail to take into consideration the dempgraphic diversion.

    A diversion? lol. So, you basically think that comparing the violent crime rates of young men with old ladies aged 85+ is going to tell you something useful? Sure, mate. A diversion.

    If the overrepresentation is exaggerated or used as to sigmatise a whole generation of Somali youth, then that is not a justifiable reaction. Strange? No. People like to complain about society and moaning about specific groups makes the whole exercise a whole lot easier. Normal? What does that mean?

    Thus, meaning we are all idiots.

    What, smart Finns? 😉 Nope, I don’t think the vast majority of Finns are idiots. But I do think that we can all be idiots in our lives on different issues. Maybe my passion for arguing with racists is idiotic? 🙂

    Or did they also fail to take into consideration the dempgraphic diversion.

    So, basically you are saying that because the ‘experts’ haven’t informed you of the meaning of the statistics, that any other future interpretation must be wrong? If these statistics appeared in a science paper that explored the issue of violent crime, then absolutely they would have to be properly qualified and their limitations explained. In fact, these bald statistics could not be offered as ‘scientific evidence’ of Somali crime. They would be totally unacceptable in this kind of ‘bald form’. However, if you are writing up crime statistics simply for the sake of it, as Tilastokeskus often does, then of course you are unlikely to get an explanation. In many registers in Finland, indicators DO have a description and sometimes an explanation of their calculation and limitation, but the point is, that is rarely if ever quoted by people looking to simply use statistics to score political points. Ain’t my fault.

  50. Andy

    actually for economical crimes you could do an international comparisation. Since you so openly advocate that Finns are fraudulent in this area. PS! Do also for less serious crimes where other than ethnic Finns might be found 🙂

    I think serious economical crimes are done by people who are higher educated than DEPRESSED4 and me. But this is just my guess….:)

  51. Mark

    Hannu

    Mark, sources and sources, i want to see your calculations with explanations. Thats something i have always provided.

    I have always provided sources when asked, but I do get tired of doing that when you lot don’t acknowledge the point that is being made. I source everything to reputable studies or statistical authorities. That is not to say that some areas are not contested, but you have to start somewhere. The point is to illustrate that the principle of comparing like with like can drastically affect what a statistic conveys. I think my point was adequately proved with my crude analysis.

    I will provide sources if Andy provides his source, how about that?

  52. justicedemon

    Andy

    actually for economical crimes you could do an international comparisation.

    But Andy! All you have ís the Finnish statistic! Any attempt to analyse it by introducing other “comparisons” or “massaging samples” is just being too clever, just like Mark and his mathematical nonsense about old ladies and the need to compare like with like.

    The plain statistical FACT is that ALL serious economic crime IN FINLAND is committed by Finnish citizens. Foreigners do not commit such offences IN FINLAND at all, and as you have previously insisted, Finland is where we live. Therefore the only honest bank manager in Finland must be a foreigner. The statistics don’t lie, do they?

    [Mark: see my posting from yesterday on methodology in this thread. This is how it’s done at this level of debate. But please remember the laws of the Magic Circle 😀 ]

  53. Mark

    Andy

    actually for economical crimes you could do an internationa

    Andy, you are being an idiot now. What appears to be fraudulent is you producing a bald statistic with no qualification, no source that completely misrepresents the situation of crime among Somali communities. For all I know, the people that compiled the statistic were well aware of it’s serious limitatations, but the statistics has been ‘lifted’ without mentioning those qualifications.

    My work links directly with the field of statistical research, Andy, and I’m quite well aware that Finnish researchers work very hard to make their statistical work effective and useful. However, I can tell you in all seriousness that any study that would look at crime rates would also have to take into account possible associations with sex, with area of domicile, with age, with economic and social status, and probably also education. They have to do these adjustments to rule out the effects of confounding variables or to identify explanatory variables.

    Now this is what Finnish researchers do. But this is not what you do when you quote some statistic out of your arse.

    Trying to make out on the strength of my criticism of you abusing statistical data does not mean that I am calling Finnish reseaerchers fraudulent. Andy, what research is this that I’m supposed to be calling fraudulent? You haven’t even cited any. You really are something.

    l comparisation. Since you so openly advocate that Finns are fraudulent in this area. PS! Do also for less serious crimes where other than ethnic Finns might be found 🙂

    So now you have lost the argument about serious crime, you want to move to other crimes? 😀 But this time, you are asking me to do your work. lolol. Yeah, right…..

    You do realise that this reveals the exact nature of the problem. You are approaching the data already with a conclusion and trying to fit the data to match your conclusion! As a reliable source of information and knowledge, you have zero credibility, Andy. Give up, mate, you are way out of your depth. It would just be more useful for you to accept that your prejudices are not founded on evidence, so they must be founded on….yes, prejudice.

  54. Mark

    JD

    [Mark: see my posting from yesterday on methodology in this thread. This is how it’s done at this level of debate. But please remember the laws of the Magic Circle 😀 ]

    Yep, just read it. Useful and perceptive points you make.

  55. Laputis

    D4R:
    “I really don’t care much about religion, i myself don’t follow religion. I don’t understand your logic of saying that, religion defines people of who they’re. Ofcourse religion can have effect on peoples mind, but at the end of the day, people get hysterical for no reason.”

    Hey, I don’t care about religion as well. I was talking about moral fingerprints what religions leave on people. Religions have influence on us, whether we ourselves are religious or not.

    “There are laws in Finland and everyone should abide, be a moslim or budhist. If someone commits a crime then, it becomes a police case, there is no reason to stigmatize and oppress people of who they’re or what religion they follow.”

    You didn’t understand me. I meant that religions have influence on morals, understanding about life, etc. which influence human actions. Even if people don’t follow any religions at all, they still follow some rules. I just tried to explain why people who have been influenced by Abrachamic religions are more prone to crimes than the ones, who have been influenced by eastern religions, such as Buddhism or Hinduism. It’s quite much connected to understanding about importance of materialistic things.
    I am not saying which religions are better and which are worse. After all they all are relative. We don’t know for sure all those big life questions (what is purpose of life, what happens after death etc.). Maybe people who live for only one life are more right than ones, who believe on multiple lives, maybe not. We don’t know for sure.

    “Laputis you need to get over your prejudice, prejudice will only put a gap between you and other wonderful people. Think about, the people you’d meet, or the friends you’d have, from different backgrounds? being prejudice against people you don’t know will only alienate you.”

    But it’s common and well known fact that people with Muslim or Christian background are inclined more into materialistic things, thus, as a side-effect, they are also more inclined to crimes, which are driven by urge to get materialistic items, or temporary pleasure. It’s just so obvious, that it’s hardly prejudice.
    Again, I am not intending to bash or insult anyone, I am just saying objective explanations behind the crime numbers.

  56. Mark

    Laputis

    But it’s common and well known fact that people with Muslim or Christian background are inclined more into materialistic things, thus, as a side-effect, they are also more inclined to crimes.

    That’s news to me Laputis. Ellis & Peterson (1999) found the complete opposite of what you claim. Crime and religion: An international comparison among thirteen industrial nations

    At the individual level of analysis, evidence has accumulated in support of the hypothesis that persons who are most religious commit crimes at lower rates than those who are least religious….Overall, the findings revealed that more religious countries have lower crime rates than less religious countries.

    And another one, this time by Evans et al. (2006) RELIGION AND CRIME REEXAMINED: THE IMPACT OF RELIGION, SECULAR CONTROLS, AND SOCIAL ECOLOGY ON ADULT CRIMINALITY

    We found that, among our religiosity measures, participation in religious activities was a persistent and noncontingent inhibiter of adult crime.

    Seems D4R was right about your prejudice!!!

  57. eyeopener

    Hi Laputis.

    You are really some stupid guy. Does religion matters here?? If so, than really start reading the literature that’s available. Some bloggers here have given you information.

    If you want to play stupid don’t blame others to be smarter than you are.

    That taken in consideration many people in Finland are smarter that you. Big deal!!

  58. Janne

    Peter ”Amongst the Somali community in Finland there is a deep seated distrust in the police, and with good reason I might add. ”

    So tell me why does this distrust bite particularly well on Somalis?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Janne and welcome to our debate on Migrant Tales.

      –So tell me why does this distrust bite particularly well on Somalis?

      I think this “distrust” is widespread in the immigrant community. How much is a guess, however. One problem with the Finnish police is that it is all white. How many visible minorities are on the force? This would help to bolster confidence.

  59. Mark

    Andy

    where is the source for the best bank manager

    What is your source for ethnic crime rates in Finland? It’s okay, you can say the word ‘Hommaforuum’ to us, we understand.

    • Migrant Tales

      Maumi, welcome to Migrant Tales.

      The police has rebuffed a number of rumors. From what we understand, and this is unconfirmed, is that the victim is a naturalized Finn from Somalia who went to the prom. He was killed after that. D4R and other sources claim the killer to be a white Finn.

  60. maumi

    Depressed4 reason

    ”becus other countries have less deluded racist bigoted lies spreading people like you”

    is this enough to file a law suit?

  61. maumi

    …depressed

    ”Somebody in Hommaforum told andy a rumor wich is a lie, that somalis are the biggest criminals in finland lol, so he is going around with excitement spreading those lies, he really believes those lies”

    Isn’t this pathetic? Can’t you do better?

  62. Laputis

    Mark:

    “What kind of nonsensical response is that to being contradicted by scientific evidence?”

    You yourself wrote nonsense. How was revalent your scientific study about that non-believers have higher high crime rates than believers, when here we were talking about Somali community in Finland, which is both religious and has rather high crime rate? How, hmm?

  63. Mark

    Laputis

    You yourself wrote nonsense. How was revalent your scientific study about that non-believers have higher high crime rates than believers, when here we were talking about Somali community in Finland, which is both religious and has rather high crime rate? How, hmm?

    Moving goal posts….hmm, it must be Laputis again!

    Look at what I responded to – it was a specific general claim you made about religious people (specifically Christians and Muslims) being more material, greedy and thereby criminal. I refuted that specific claim with two pieces of scientific research, one a meta-analysis of many studies and the other a study covering 13 industrialised countries. However, rather than admit that you were caught out with a spurious claim, you choose to try to move the goal posts. Absolutely true to form, Laputis.

    Also, the ‘high crime rate’ among Somalis is certainly questionable given the ridiculous way that Somali immigrants, who represent a very specific kind of demographic, are compared to a much broader and varied national Finnish demographic. But that argument is probably going to be far too sensible for you or, more to the point, inconvenient to acknowledge.

    Also, taking into account those instances where some problems exist among Somali youth, you will be aware that a small gang of youths aged 17-20 and numbering about 20 individuals were almost single-handedly responsible for the most disturbing statistics on robbery in Helsinki, an issue that the Police, the Somali community and Helsinki authorities have attempted to tackle, quite sensibly and together.

    One of the characteristics of these Somali gangs is that they reject the stict religious culture of their parents, often end up in institutional care and thereby lack the proper support of a family structure. If you are going to get upset about this phenomena of delinquent youth and troubled families, then I also suggest you tackle the 16,500 other children in Finland who for various reasons are in the care of the state, a fifth of them involuntarily. These are a vulnerable group of people who often have complex problems and suffer different degrees of marginalisation from society. The question is how to help them.

    However, it seems you lot (Andy et al.) are only interested in using them as a means to stigmatize all children as being delinquent, except you don’t focus on Finnish children in this situation, but rather children with dark skins. Hmm…what do I make of that?

  64. Laputis

    Mark, you are really paranoid. I fell pity for you.

    I talk about religions, but you, suddenly turn it to skin colors. I was talking about greediness of Muslims. And I didn´t mean Somalis only. I had in mind Turkic-Muslim people, who are some of neighbours to my ethnic group in Russia. They are more interested into material things and show-off. Some of stereotypes about them is that they have more and better merchants, traders and so on than my ethnic group has. Merchants and traders are all about materialistic stuff, money, don´t you agree? That all indicates interest about material stuff. But, unfortunately, this interest has also some bad side-effects like stealing and robbery. BTW one of popular stereotypes in Russia about some Turkic-Muslim ethnicities is that they are “sly”. Ask some Russians about what is their stereotypes about Tatars, and one of things they will tell you that “Tatars are sly people”.
    And what it has all to do with skin color, my paranoid friend? Tatars often are white as snow, depigmented as hell.

  65. Veikko

    Hi Peter

    ”How would you react if you were a young Somali man? My guess is that the police wouldn’t be the first people you would turn to. Amongst the Somali community in Finland there is a deep seated distrust in the police, and with good reason I might add. ”

    ”Young Somali men have often been the target of police stop and searches that border on harassment. ”

    Where are the sources and how many convictions for harassment have been made?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Veikko and welcome to Migrant Tales.

      The source is the people whom you speak with. Does that represent a majority is difficult to say. But there are some who are very critical of the police. Why? This is a good question that we could explore.

      Do I need sources to back what I say? Certainly. Those sources are people who I know and members of the community.

  66. Veikko

    WHen reading Peter’s posts it’s hard to really see what he is trying to say. They are inconsistent.

    ”You clearly have not paid attention to my previous posts.” Is it perhaps that they look like Swiss cheese with holes? Is it the audience’s fault that your message is constantly a blur?

  67. Mark

    Look, Laputis, you might clothe your comments now with more detail and specifics, but to begin with, you made a very sweeping and general claim about muslims and christians. I tested your claim against the literature and found that the complete opposite appears to be true. Of course, these kinds of studies take place at a population level, and they do not give an account of the diversity of individuals.

    Some of stereotypes about them is that they have more and better merchants, traders and so on than my ethnic group has. Merchants and traders are all about materialistic stuff, money, don´t you agree?

    Well now you start to put the proper qualifications on your statement, ‘some stereotypes…’ Do I agree with the stereotypes? Well, stereotypes can be useful and even funny, but to take them as red, to take only the negative ones and use them to bash an a nationality, like you are doing, that verges on racism. And if you cannot see that, then are pretty dense.

    And what it has all to do with skin color, my paranoid friend? Tatars often are white as snow, depigmented as hell.

    Where did I mention Tatars, Laputis? I was refering to Muslims, and as much of the context for this discussion has been about about Somalis in Finland, I think their ‘brown skin’ is relevant when people are trying to label them as ‘criminal’. Clearly Finns also think that Russians are criminal too, but I suppose one type of bigotry gives way to another, as is often the case. Don’t blame me for that Laputis, if it complicates matters.

  68. Veikko

    Depressed 4 Reason

    ”No you’re lying. Those finns caused his death” The police statement says differently than you. Or is it so that you know better from your home sofa than the police?

    • Migrant Tales

      Veikko, could you provide us a link that confirms what you say about the Somali in Espoo? Thanks.

      I don’t think anyone tries to “lie” here.

  69. Veikko

    Migrant Tales

    Do I need sources to back what I say? Certainly. Those sources are people who I know and members of the community.

    Sure, but if they think so then they should present evidence. If there is a great distrust this could be made. May be you should try to show examples.

  70. Mark

    Veikko

    Who is on the sofa? The police have not commented on the ’cause of death’. Your conclusion is even more speculation than D4R’s.

    It is yet to be decided what charges will be brought, but JD has already pointed out on this thread that this case appears to fall into the category of felony murder or manslaughter as the man’s death was a direct result of the criminal actions of those breaking into the man’s flat.Who’s to say that those breaking in were not shouting thinks like ‘I’m going to kill you?’ Would that change your opinion Veikko? And how about ‘I’m going to kill you Nekuri?’ Would that then make it a racist crime? I’m just speculating, but none of these these are beyond the bounds of possiblity. It seems that many Finns are on the defensive about this, claiming that it was NOT this or NOT that when actually the police have revealed very few details about the facts. Because the police are being tight-lipped does not mean that you can interpret that as confirming your own prejudices.

  71. Veikko

    I just wanted to make a recap of a few statements on this site. Without scrolling up guess who? 🙂

    I pity you, Shame on you, Can you do that, Do you, you have not paid attention,You did not express your disgust at their behavior, To be quite frank, I’m simply asking you to state that racism and xenophobia are bad, I asked you to place yourself in the other person’s shoes for a moment,You failed to show even the tiniest bit here!, You can drop you qualifying statements such as, I am asking you to make a statement that you find any racist is despicable regardless of the passport he/she holds or the color of his/her skin. Please help me to break one of the stereotypes about trolls, but is it true that you guys live under bridges?Your hatred may be encouraged on Homma Forum or Scripta, but it has NO place here!

    I do not know how to comment this, may be you can help me.

  72. justicedemon

    Veikko

    You need to define your position on the first Oulu case. Is it your view, for example, that the death would have occurred even without the attempted forcible entry to the victim’s home? Are you arguing that the victim would have jumped out of the window anyway? Are you, perhaps, arguing that the forcible entry was an unsuccessful attempt to prevent a suicide?

    If not, then how would you characterise the contributory effect of the attempted forcible entry in bringing about the tragic outcome?

  73. Mark

    Veikko

    Sorry, I am the one confused. I thought you were talking about the Oulu death, as this is the one that has been most contested as a ‘murder’ charge. However, I thought the Espoo case was fairly straightforward. Which part do you not agree with, Veikko?

  74. Mark

    Actually, it isn’t me that is confused, it’s Enrique, it appears. Everyone else is talking about Oulu, no? But Enrique switched to Espoo, probably because this started as a story about the Espoo murder, but Hannu immediately switched attention back to Oulu, with his first post!

  75. justicedemon

    Veikko

    Are you afraid to state where you stand on the first Oulu case?

    D4R commented:

    Those finns caused his death

    You made a point of disputing this claim:

    The police statement says differently than you. Or is it so that you know better from your home sofa than the police?

    I asked you to clarify your objection (though I don’t recall saying anything about donkeys), as it is counterintuitive to suggest that the victim’s death had nothing to do with the three Finns who were trying to break into his home at the time. Take the three Finns out of the picture and you are left with a very extraordinary suicide that is even more puzzling.

    But if you are afraid to state your views more clearly, then I understand. This simply puts you into the Allan category of trolls on Migrant Tales and you can expect to be treated as such.

  76. Laputis

    Mark:

    “Where did I mention Tatars, Laputis? I was refering to Muslims, and as much of the context for this discussion has been about about Somalis in Finland, I think their ‘brown skin’ is relevant when people are trying to label them as ‘criminal’. Clearly Finns also think that Russians are criminal too, but I suppose one type of bigotry gives way to another, as is often the case. Don’t blame me for that Laputis, if it complicates matters.”

    Yet again flip-flop from your side. We were talking about Islam religion and it´s influence on moral values in society, yet you suddenly switched into “skin color issue”. I tried to switch back to religion, as it was my initial meaning. I mentioned Tatars because they are Muslims yet with white skin color with what I tried to remind you, that I talk about religion, not about skin color. And stop misunderstanding and “straw men” making from your side.

  77. justicedemon

    Veikko

    A little early in the day to be hitting the Kossu, isn’t it?

    I have no idea why you should be demon, or indeed what game you are playing in which demon is a role.

    Come back when you have sobered up.

  78. Mark

    Laputis

    Yet again flip-flop from your side. We were talking about Islam religion and it´s influence on moral values in society, yet you suddenly switched into “skin color issue”.

    One day, Laputis, you will learn to follow the thread of an argument. Really, check back through the list of posts, and you will see something like this: context: an argument about Somali crime rates; First you make the point about Christians and Muslims being criminals, which itself is a digression from the situation in Finland; that point is refuted by scientific studies; your response was to suggest that in quoting these two studies, I was somehow (by goodness knows what stretch of the imagination) saying that Somalians were not religious; I point out your nonsensical response; you then ask me how is my response relevant to Somali community in Finland, to which I say that it was a response to your general comment about Muslims and Christians been greedy criminals (“cos it’s obvious, like”) and also counter your claim that Somalis in Finland have high crime rates, to which you respond that you weren’t actually talking about Somalis, but greedy Muslims (fuck me, it’s like Musical Chairs meeting It’s a Knockout!); you then tell me about the Tatars in Russia (you ALWAYS bring it back to talking about Russia) and ask me why I brought skin colour into the discussion (it was because you tried to connect Somalis with crime without any evidence) because “tatars often are white as snow, depigmented as hell”; to which I respond that I wasn’t referring to Tatars, to which you say, we weren’t talking about Tatars but Islamic religion (gosh, back to that again, eh!); you then claimed I switched to skin colour (well I guess I did if I was responding to your claim that Somalis are more criminal based on your evidence of the greediness of Muslims), that you switched to religion. Then you tell me you mentioned Tatars because they were white muslims, as that had anything to do with any of my points (NO it didn’t just in case you are asking).

    You say it’s about Muslims and not skin colour. Okay, maybe I have not addressed the correct bigotry, it’s Islamaphobia and not racism. OH, wait a minute, you don’t have much good to say about Christians either, though you don’t mention them in your criticism of ‘crime rates in Finland’. Now why would that be? Because they are white? It’s the only thing left, Laputis. It is the only thing left, seeing as you were slagging of Muslims and Christians as criminals and then only choosing to talk about the crime of Somali in Finland.

    Seriously though, I’m not going to try to keep up with your bigotries. You’ve expressed enough even in these threads to put you in the racist, xenophobic and bigoted camps. However, I am going to draw your attention once again to the fact that the scientific evidence flatly contradicts your sweeping claim that religious people are more criminal (and greedy, and obssessed with bling etc.).

  79. Laputis

    Mark, it´s exactly you who doesn´t follow the thread of an argument. You a) skipped few things, b) misinterpreted few other things.

    There didn´t exist such things as:

    -“”context: an argument about Somali crime rates””,
    because the context was in reality your claim that poor people always do more crime than rich people, to what I counter-claimed that crime rates have more correlation with religions than with social classes. Thus I started to talk about different religions. I can back up my claims by statistics from different countries, if you wish. Poor people from Buddhist or Hinduist countries don´t commit as much materialistic-driven crimes as poor people from Christian or Muslim countires. Look up yourself at numbers.
    -“”make the point about Christians and Muslims being criminals””,
    because I didn´t make point about Chritians and Muslims being criminals, fuck you.
    -“”It is the only thing left, seeing as you were slagging of Muslims and Christians as criminals and then only choosing to talk about the crime of Somali in Finland.””
    I wasn´t slagging Muslims and Christians as criminals. WTF and LOLOLOL at you, Mark.

    You are irrational sometimes:

    -“”your response was to suggest that in quoting these two studies, I was somehow (by goodness knows what stretch of the imagination) saying that Somalians were not religious””
    Why then you brought a study where religious and non-religious communities were compared?
    -“”I point out your nonsensical response””.
    WTF you yourself were nonsensical with bringing up study wich had nothing to do with anything discussed here. I just pointed it out.
    -“”you then ask me how is my response relevant to Somali community in Finland, to which I say that it was a response to your general comment about Muslims and Christians been greedy criminals (“cos it’s obvious, like”)””
    So, you were bringing up this study to prove that not only Christians and Muslims can be greedy? You are one funny, funny guy, mister Obvious.
    -“”you then tell me about the Tatars in Russia””.
    Yes, I had to bring them into discussion, because you started to accuse me in racism, even though I was talking about religion.
    -“”also counter your claim that Somalis in Finland have high crime rates, to which you respond that you weren’t actually talking about Somalis, but greedy Muslims””
    WTF are you stupid? I was explaining one of reasons of Somali crime rates was them being Muslims, not so much poor class or outcasted people. For your knowledge there in world exist poor and outcasted people, enitre ethnic groups, who do not commit crimes like thieving or robbery!!!!!! I try to be objective, but you attack me for that! Damned paranoid! For you being pleased I can tell that also ethnic and national groups with Christian background can have rather high crime rates, when we talk about poorer and marginalised groups. Especially think of Latin America etc.
    -“”and ask me why I brought skin colour into the discussion (it was because you tried to connect Somalis with crime without any evidence)””
    You missed the whole point. The whooole point! The whole discussion between us started because I counter-claimed your statement, that crime correlates firstly with poverty or marginalisation. I disagreed with you, because I brought statement, that crimes correlate pretty much with religions as well. You of course, took it as me saying as if all Muslims or Christians are criminals. WTF dude. You are twisting my words.
    -“””You say it’s about Muslims and not skin colour. Okay, maybe I have not addressed the correct bigotry, it’s Islamaphobia and not racism. “”
    I am not Islamophobic, I am not against Muslims or Islam. Because I said you objective facts doesn´t mean that you have to twist them, and put in your paranoid way.
    -“”OH, wait a minute, you don’t have much good to say about Christians either, though you don’t mention them in your criticism of ‘crime rates in Finland’.””
    Wait, we were talking about Somalians right? If we were talking about Finns and how high crime rates they have, I would have mentioned Christianity too. Stop boiling nonsense, Mark.
    -“”Because they are white? It’s the only thing left, Laputis.””
    You are twisting yet again. Fuck this paranoid mind.
    -“”However, I am going to draw your attention once again to the fact that the scientific evidence flatly contradicts your sweeping claim that religious people are more criminal (and greedy, and obssessed with bling etc.).””
    LOL my point wasn´t about that religious people are more criminal than non-religious. Flip-flop, flip-flop, Mark.

    P.S. What the hell means “it’s like Musical Chairs meeting It’s a Knockout”, I have not a single idea what it means. Maybe you understand what means “to have three copies of champagne as in Caucasian kidnapping”? Your cultural references don´t tell me anything, just like mine to you. Don´t expect everyone here to be from anglosphere world. I am one who isn´t.

  80. Mark

    Sorry, Enrique, could you delete the double post:

    Laputis

    There didn´t exist such things as:-””context: an argument about Somali crime rates”.

    Well, actually, there did. It goes back to Andy’s assertion that the violent crime rate was 56.94 per 1000 of Somali population in Finland. You came into the argument at the point where I made a connection (which is generally well-known in welfare and criminology studies) between violent crime and poverty, suggesting it was more about religion. However, the context was very much the discussion of how crime statistics for Somali’s can be very misleading.

    to what I counter-claimed that crime rates have more correlation with religions than with social classes.

    Well, social classes was not mentioned at all. Go on, do a search of this page. I related poverty directly to unemployment levels, as it happens.

    Thus I started to talk about different religions. I can back up my claims by statistics from different countries, if you wish.

    Now that would make a pleasant change. 😀

    -””make the point about Christians and Muslims being criminals””,
    because I didn´t make point about Chritians and Muslims being criminals, fuck you.

    What was this then:

    But it’s common and well known fact that people with Muslim or Christian background are inclined more into materialistic things, thus, as a side-effect, they are also more inclined to crimes.

    And then…

    WTF you yourself were nonsensical with bringing up study which had nothing to do with anything discussed here.

    I see, so a study that looked at the link between religiosity and crime has nothing to do with the above.

    WTF are you stupid? I was explaining one of reasons of Somali crime rates was them being Muslims, not so much poor class or outcasted people.

    For which you gave no evidence, and to which I replied with two reliable studies to counter your claim.

    For your knowledge there in world exist poor and outcasted people, enitre ethnic groups, who do not commit crimes like thieving or robbery!!!!!! I try to be objective, but you attack me for that!

    No, you mix anecdote, myth and personal sentiment and prejudice for ‘facts about the world’, for which D4R rightly pulled you.

    I disagreed with you, because I brought statement, that crimes correlate pretty much with religions as well.

    I love the way you try to appropriate my language. Anyhow, I’m still waiting for you to produce some evidence for this claim.

    LOL my point wasn´t about that religious people are more criminal than non-religious. Flip-flop, flip-flop, Mark.

    To which you deny the relevance of studies showing that compared to ‘non-religious’ people, religious people are less inclined towards, and especially property crime, I might add.

    P.S. What the hell means “it’s like Musical Chairs meeting It’s a Knockout”, I have not a single idea what it means.

    Yep, like you don’t have Google to go check it up. 🙂

  81. Mark

    Laputis

    Actually, my response to this:

    LOL my point wasn´t about that religious people are more criminal than non-religious. Flip-flop, flip-flop, Mark.

    …wasn’t set up correctly. When I read that comparative ‘more inclined into materialistic…’ etc., I assumed you were comparing to non-religious people. But now I realise you were probably comparing to Buddhists, though you didn’t comment at all about my pointing out to you the Buddhist bling! 🙂

    The more I think about it, the more ridiculous your claim appears, especially in the context of this discussion. IF you are comparing with Buddhists, then I hardly see the point, given that there are not a great many Buddhists in Finland. And also, while it’s nice that Buddhists are less inclined to crime, assuming your assertions are correct (which is probably a dangerous thing to do), they only make up 7% of the world’s population.

    OMG, I knew it was a dangerous thing to take one of your ‘obvious facts’ as a reliable source of information. Thailand is 95% Buddhist. Position in terms of gun violence? No.1 among 32 countries that included USA, South Africa, and even Mexico! Take a trundle down to Nationmaster.com. You’ll also find that Thailand was 4th on the list for corruption, and 17th of 50 countries studied in terms of ‘total crime’.

    Laputis – you live in a bubble, man! Isn’t it about time you ‘arrived’ on the planet? 😀

  82. justicedemon

    Mark

    I understand that the crime rates in the Bible-bashing “red states” of the USA are consistently higher than in the more secular “blue states”. There has been some discussion of the following observation by Sam Harris in Letter to a Christian Nation:

    Of the twenty-five cities with the lowest rates of violent crime, 62 percent are in blue states, and 38 percent are in red states. Of the twenty-five most dangerous cities, 76 percent are in red states, and 24 percent are in blue states. In fact, three of the five most dangerous cities in the U.S. are in the pious state of Texas. The twelve states with the highest rates of burglary are red. Twenty-four of the twenty-nine states with the highest rates of theft are red. Of the twenty-two states with the highest rates of murder, seventeen are red.

    Make of this what you will.

  83. Mark

    JD

    Well, I’m not sure what to make of it really. Just because there is higher religiousity in states that have higher crime doesn’t mean that it’s the religious people who are responsible for the higher crime. It doesn’t rule it out either. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is conflicting evidence. The point is, Laputis has produced any evidence to support his claim and on the face of it, there is evidence to at least refute it. Does that make him more uncertain of his convictions? Hardly 😀

    I found a similar statistic that looked at violent crime in 2008 election and the Obama states had an average of 389 incidents per 100,000 population compared to 412 per 100,000 for the McCain voting states, a difference of some 6%. But there are so many variables. Also, one state might have quite high crime rates, but be only very marginally for McCain, .1%, and yet had 511 incidents per 100,000. In the comments on the stats, I came across this explanation for why red states have worst crime:

    more poverty, fewer programs to mitigate it
    more drug abuse, fewer programs to treat it
    abortions are less available, so there are more unwanted children, badly raised children, children in poverty
    guns are more available and more prevalent
    more racism and a wider economic divide
    less educational opportunity and lower education levels

    How true this list is, I don’t know, but it’s food for thought. The fact that property crime is generally found to be lower in red states, but gun crime and homicides to be higher could be down to Republicans preferring less stringent gun laws, while ‘thou shalt not steal’ at least operates to some extent.

    Interestingly, on the issue of comparing crime data between groups, this initiative has sought to control data for demographic variables, much like I suggested to Andy. h t t p ://www.cjgsu.net/initiatives/HomRates-PR-2010-01-21.htm

    The effect of controlling for demographics significantly changed the rankings for many states:

    In the 2008 data, Detroit falls from number 2 in the unadjusted homicide ranking to number 53 after statistical adjustment. Cleveland drops from number 8 to number 56. Atlanta falls from number 11 to 58. By contrast, Albuquerque, New Mexico jumps from number 44 to number 11 and Colorado Springs, Colorado rises from number 52 to 22 after statistical adjustment.

    Interestingly, the effect is seen to operate in two directions, though. In other words, some cities are experiencing more homicides than would be predicted based on socioeconomic variables and others are experiencing less. Clearly there are other factors at work.

    Clearly this initiative shows that statistics that are not adjusted for socioeconomic factors can give a very misleading picture, which is the point I tried to bring home to Andy, and which remains valid even if you try to take religion into account.

  84. Janne

    Migrant Tales

    Hannu, why not start to learn a new word in English: racial profiling. I think it would be very important for you to begin to grasp the problem. Here is a good place to start: http://wp.me/p4UBR-jd

    What is your level of English yourself?

  85. Janne

    justicedemon

    ”I think we just caught another drunken troll.”-really constructive. This should be applauded to.

    Check international agreements, the UN for instance. FInlex would be useful for you as well.

  86. justicedemon

    Janne

    Thank you for your applause.

    You seem to know everything. How do you explain the massive overrepresentation of Finnish citizens in serious economic crime (e.g. seven-figure embezzlement, antitrust and bankruptcy-related offences)? No foreigner has ever even been charged with an offence of this kind in Finland. Ever. Not even once. ALL of the offenders have been Finnish citizens. Doesn’t this show that Finns are much less honest than foreigners in business, and that we should prefer foreign accountants, bank managers and company directors?

    When you have answered that question think about the fundamental methodology that you used. Then explain how you applied the same methodology to Somalis.

  87. Janne

    ”Then explain how you applied the same methodology to Somalis.” what methology?

    Why are you labeling people drunken trolls? Do you find yourself superior to them and want to make fun of them?

    I do not know anything about accounting. Tell my your source so I can look into it

  88. Pena

    Regarding the bankman. As we know Google nor Yahoo know about this bank manager, thus this associate editor’s comment can be left where it belongs, in the TRASH. As long with his rest offending comments.

    ”Perhaps thug with wet pants would be a more accurate description.”
    ”I think we just caught another drunken troll”

  89. Jane

    Hi my name is Jane from Seattle. I know many Finns and I know a little of the Finnish education system and what is the Finnish honesty.

    As we have no evidence of who this bank manager is then there is no bank manager.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Jane from Seattle, the home of the Sonics.:-) Welcome to Migrant Tales and for your comment.

  90. Iiro

    Hi justicedemon

    Hi are the Somalis contributing to the multicultural enrichment in Finland?

    I have only found crime statistics on them.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Iiro, how are you contributing to our cultural diversity? Is it by suspicion and belittling other groups and retarding their rights in our society?

      Welcome to Migrant Tales.

      By the way, if you have never met a Somali or an African I would be happy to help you out. It’s not worth believing the PS or racists who spread urban tales.

  91. Iiro

    thank you.

    Well, I asked you a simple question, that is all. How I contribute, I have travelled in the majority of European countries, as well as in South-America and 3 times to Africa. South-Africa is the nicest place I think I have been to, despite its rather high crime rate. I speak 4 languages (French not so well). I have lived approx 6 years (when working)in France, Uk and Spain. Furthermore, I studied in Budapest. May be an internationally cultural view?

    I know a few afros, quite nice these dudes and chics. I have even dated an African and a Brazilian.I keep more or less in touch with a few foreiners, not because it’s nice to have foreign friends but because I like these people. However I have never heard that my African friends have been involved or committed crimes in the same rate as for example http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_somalit#Katury.C3.B6st.C3.B6t states regarding somalis.

    We have discussed this crime issue with them. They don’t try to protect their fellow country men when it comes to crime. If you commit crimes, you are a criminal.

  92. justicedemon

    Janne

    Focusing on bank managers, we could start with Kari Uoti and Ulf Sundqvist.

    You will find a list of antitrust offences here, featuring some of the largest companies in Finland. Not a foreigner in sight on their management teams when these offences were happening.

    Finnish citizens have a total monopoly on serious economic crime in Finland (seven-figure embezzlement and antitrust offences, defrauding creditors in bankruptcy, etc.). No foreigner has ever even been suspected of such an offence in Finland. Go on, I dare you to find even one.

    Shouldn’t we conclude from this that foreigners are more honest and trustworthy, and that Finnish companies should not take the risk of appointing a Finnish CEO who is statistically 100 per cent more likely to commit an offence in office? Nokia has already set an example in this regard.

    If not, then why not? This is exactly the methodology that you apply when discussing robbery statistics.

    Look up methodology in a dictionary if you have to.

  93. Iiro

    My policy with criminals is that I try to deal with them as little as possible.

    Not inviting them over, purposely not talking to them (if I know they are criminals) and everything to make them feel excluded. I openly advocate public register of for instance rapers, pedophiles or other form of violent crime offenders that some countries have already.

    How do you deal with criminals, or the robbers in the link for instance?

    • Migrant Tales

      –My policy with criminals is that I try to deal with them as little as possible.

      How many members of the group you are speaking of are criminals? 100%

  94. Mark

    Janne

    Mark, u seem to know everything. How do you explain the overpresentation of Somalis in robberies and the Wikipidiea?

    It’s called research and critical thinking, Janne, and you can do it too. For understanding crime statistics of immigrant groups and the skewing effects of demographic variables, see one of the earlier posts in this thread.

  95. Iiro

    well, I do not know.

    How do you deal with criminals? What is your relation to criminals? or the robbers in the link for instance?

    If my suggestion was bad, what is your suggestion?

  96. Mark

    JD

    No foreigner has ever even been suspected of such an offence in Finland. Go on, I dare you to find even one.

    Sums up in a nutshell why quoting crime statistics about foreigners is complete baloney!

    • Migrant Tales

      –Sums up in a nutshell why quoting crime statistics about foreigners is complete baloney!

      Ditto, a bunch of phony baloney!

  97. Mark

    Iiro

    Are the Somalis contributing to the multicultural enrichment in Finland? I have only found crime statistics on them.

    First things first, whenever you use the world ‘multicultural’, I would recommend you replace it with ‘cultural’ and you will probably arrive at a slightly lest racist standpoint. Seriously, giving the word ‘multicultural’ to a person like yourself is like giving a loaded Uzi to a 10-year-old.

    Are Somalis contributing to the cultural enrichment of Finland? Yes. However, if you hang out in Hommaforuum or only base your opinions about Somalis on newspaper articles, then typically, you will only hear bad news. The same would be true of anyone trying to discover what kind of people Finns are by only reading Iltasanomat!

    We have discussed this crime issue with them. They don’t try to protect their fellow country men when it comes to crime. If you commit crimes, you are a criminal.

    I don’t see how being a racist doesn’t mean you cannot travel or even get on with foreigners. Racists are not all ‘haters’. But prejudice is prejudice, and if you honestly think you can sum up Somali culture in Finland by pointing to crime statistics, you are off your trolly.

    If you read up this thread, you will see some discussion of these robbery figures from the mid-2000s, and the police conclusion was that it was the work of about 20 individuals. So, for the sake of the behaviour of 20 individuals, you feel justified in condemning the character of the entire Somali population in Finland of 13,000 people? Are you insane? It certainly sounds insane.

  98. Mark

    Honestly, this thread was talking about the fact that the nationality of the second of three immigrant murder victims in as many weeks was finally confirmed by police. And, in the space of several comments, all the attention is suddenly switched to talking about Somali crime, Somali robberies, involving a couple of dozen young criminals as if that somehow represents the entire character of 13,000 Somali speakers living in Finland.

    This is an absolute disgrace. It makes me so angry to see such denial and inhumanity from people who would like to think they are among the most civilised nations of the earth.

    It’s completely insane. Shame on you.

  99. Amanda

    Hi all

    I work as an controller for an international firm. This bank manager has passed my ears though I follow closely what happens in Helsinki and Finland.

    I would like to hear the full story about this man or woman.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Amanda, welcome to Migrant Tales. Check out JusticeDemon’s thread below.

  100. justicedemon

    Iiro

    well, my question is still unanswered

    You have asked various questions, some of them loaded questions that do not deserve to be dignified with an answer. Have you stopped beating your wife yet, yes or no?

    I referred you above to two well-known Finnish bank managers, and to major economic crimes that have occurred in companies under exclusively Finnish management. If you follow the links, then you will find out more about them.

    Now give us an example of a foreigner who has even been suspected of a seven-figure economic crime in Finland. There are none at all. Following your logic with regard to Somalis, doesn’t this show that a Finnish CEO is statistically 100 per cent more likely than a foreign CEO to commit such an offence, and that therefore Nokia was wise to replace Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo with Stephen Elop?

  101. justicedemon

    Amanda

    The Kauppalehti article suggests that Christian Clausen has become a Finnish citizen (“suomalaistunut“), but as he is Danish, this may merely mean that he has made the required declaration under section 30 of the Nationality Act after living in Finland for five years without being sentenced to a term of imprisonment.

    Christian Clausen would no longer be classified as a foreign bank manager in Finland, so I suppose he is now free to embezzle funds from Nordea. At least that is how our racist contributors here have chosen to interpret statistical information.

    Quite why Christian Clausen would choose to behave in such a way after earning €1.67 million in 2011 is not clear, but statistically he is more likely to do so according to our racist friends.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Sebastian and welcome to Migrant Tales.

      –seems to be full of hostility this forum

      Good question. How would you contribute to a blog that can debate an issue like immigration and Finnish identity? If I showed you the trolls that are waiting outside our door, you could conclude pretty rapidly where that hostility comes from.

      This is a blog that debates immigration issues in Finland and elsewhere.

      Welcome to our debate.

  102. Andy

    Justice demon.

    There is not much truth in your statement. Is your Finnish struggling?
    Do you have difficulties to understand the law?

    And racist here and racist there, are you a racist?

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, JusticeDemon gave you an answer. Don’t cry over it but give a civil response back to him. People usually attack others when they get personal and starting throwing punches below the belt. It suggests that you are at quite a loss for valid counter arguments.

  103. Andy

    first of all it’s two years for Nordic citizens to gain citizenship instead of the suggested 5 in Finland. Moreover, it’s his manners and customs they talk about in the artcile, not the legal procedure to get a citizenship.

    ttp://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_kansalaisuus

    I believe it’s the muslim immigrant gangs in Denmark harassing everybody that made him and his family to Finlaandia, what do you think? You seem grumpy 2nite, is all ok?

  104. justicedemon

    Andy

    Are you aware of the difference between citizenship by application and citizenship on declaration? I suggest you look into this before trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs. My source is the Nationality Act – I even cited the relevant section.

    Are you also aware of how suggests is used in English? It is precisely because suomalaistua is ambiguous that I chose this expression.

    The Kauppalehti article was mainly concerned with Clausen’s remuneration.

    What is the basis for your belief about his relocation. Have you discussed this with Clausen personally, or is this just your prejudice talking again?

    By your statistical reasoning, of course, we have more reason to trust him if he is still a foreigner.

  105. Andy

    does not matter which act you use if you don’t understand what you read.
    the same applies to articles, read through and ask people who understand if you don’t do it as you did not above.

    I know personally that some people never get law issues. May be you should try another path

  106. justicedemon

    Andy

    Apropos of nothing much, but for the benefit of our foreign readers and to put you in your place:

    Kansalaisuuslaki 16.5.2003/359

    4 luku
    Suomen kansalaisuus ilmoituksesta


    30 § (20.5.2011/579)
    Pohjoismaan kansalainen

    Islannin, Norjan, Ruotsin tai Tanskan 18 vuotta täyttänyt kansalainen saa ilmoituksesta Suomen kansalaisuuden, jos hän on saanut Islannin, Norjan, Ruotsin tai Tanskan kansalaisuuden muulla tavoin kuin kansalaistamalla, jos hänen varsinainen asuntonsa ja kotinsa on ja on ollut Suomessa viimeksi kuluneet viisi vuotta ja jos häntä ei tänä aikana ole tuomittu vapausrangaistukseen.

    The crucial point about this kind of citizenship on declaration is that there are no requirements of continuity of residence during the qualifying period (yhtäjaksoinen asumisaika), general personal integrity (nuhteettomuus, applying not only to prison sentences, but even to speeding fines), financial probity or language ability. The fee for citizenship on declaration is also much smaller than the fee for citizenship by application (though I doubt that this would be a significant concern for Christian Clausen), and the citizenship takes effect on the date when a valid declaration is received, not on the date when a well-founded application is finally decided. This is important with application periods running at between one and two years.

    The great majority of naturalised Finns from other Nordic countries gain Finnish citizenship by the declaration procedure.

  107. Nano

    Hi

    Who are the Associate editors on this site?

    What is their nationality, education, occupation/current employment, age, gender, country of origin, place and country of residence.

    I can only find information about Enriqe here but nothing of the editors.

    Nano

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Nano and welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales.

      I don’t understand your question and why these things are important to you? Are you from Statistics Finland? 🙂

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Dave, and welcome to Migrant Tales. USAmerican English is fine.

      This is a blog founded by me, Enrique Tessieri, in 2007.

      You are welcome to join our debate.

  108. Antsa

    Hi I found an interesting controversy of your editors.

    Demon says ”ll you really need to do at this level is apply the same bullshit statistical “methods” to show things that get up the racist troll’s nose (for example that the only honest bank manager is a foreigner”, but according to the article in Kauppalehti he became FInnish (not citizen) and started to make money when he was ”Finnish”

    May be this could be an incentive for some ethnic immigrants, as their unemployment tend to be relatively high. On the other side other immigrants do pretty well, better than Finns to be precise.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Antsa, and welcome to Migrant Tales.

      Pocket calculators and statistics appear to be the only “weapon” of choice by anti-immigration groups.

      Do you know what I would like to see? SOLUTIONS — not constant whining with no solutions. When you look at these types of politicians making their arguments, see if you find any solutions. Unfortunately they provide none because they don’t have a clue.

      Your first thread did not pass moderation because it was not only offensive but simplistic and distorted. Give us a better argument than sounding off what anti-immigration politicians are doing in Finland.

  109. Hasssan

    what background do the editors of this blog have?

    There is a language requirement for this site. For example in the 2 official tests that are carried out in Europe, what is the minimum score in order to participate?

    moi moi Hassan

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Hassan, who says so? We use English, Finnish, Spanish and other languages are welcome.

      Welcome to Migrant Tales.

  110. Elona

    Hi. It’s Elona

    Sure, I know those tests. Toefl and Ielts, both are official tests. May be the editors could present first and then those who debate?

    In addition of course it would be nice to hear about the background of the people who run this discussion. I find it strange if they don’t do so.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Elona, and welcome to Migrant Tales. You can find out a little about me on this link.

  111. justicedemon

    Antsa

    It’s really quite simple. The hommaforum argument here is that there is no need to weight or analyse statistics in order to ensure that they compare like with like. Statistics describing the behaviour of an immigrant population group that has a large preponderance of males aged between 14 and 44 can therefore be compared directly to statistics for Finland as a whole, which has a substantial preponderance of women aged over 45. Nor is there any need to adjust for other factors such as socioeconomic status. Indeed most of our prejudiced trolls here seem to have no idea what statistical weighting even means. They simply think they have found something that supports their prejudices.

    All I have done is to apply exactly the same approach to serious economic crime and draw parallel conclusions. All serious economic crime in Finland is committed by Finnish citizens. This means seven-figure offences such as defrauding creditors in major bankruptcies (Uoti, Sundqvist), cartel formation (paper, asphalting), insider trading (TJ Group) and bribery (Patria). No foreigner has ever even been suspected of such an offence in Finland. Go on – I dare you to find even one. It follows directly from this statistical fact that a Finnish CEO in a Finnish company is more likely then a foreign CEO to be dishonest and untrustworthy. Nokia is one company that has obviously noted this statistical fact, and decided that the 100 per cent higher risk of dishonesty is unacceptable, which is why they replaced Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo with Stephen Elop. This is a completely watertight conclusion reached by the same hommaforum reasoning.

    If you think statistical weighting is important after all, then begin by explaining how you do this for immigrant population groups. Mark has outlined the basic procedure in this and other recent threads.

  112. Andy

    justicedemon

    WHen he became Finnish (the process of taking the Finnish habits) he started to earn good money. It can thus be interpreted that these traits made him wealthier. Furthermore he squatters around in Stockholm as well but no Swedishification is taken place.

    I suppose it’s the timing when the muslim riots started to take place when he left Denmark in 2007.

  113. Andy

    didn’t u sleep well demon?

    You should remember also that immigrants are also having Finnish citizenship and they go as such in statistics. For example the Somali crime is more or less the double since the share of both finnish-somali and somali-somali are as big as oone another today.

    Regarding the companies…you are making very absolute statments with no room for interpretation. I suppose that there is a foreigner working for these companies :), or an owner, or a member of the board. U c, it depends a little how u c on these things to quote urself. Furthermore, the mysterious Uffe is not a Finn, but a Swedish speaking Finn. There is a big difference, ”bättre folk” you know.

  114. eyeopener

    Hi Andy.

    Got the rank of Police Detective Superintendent?? Did you go the Police Academy? Got a diploma?? Doesnot show!! Not really the public face Police in Finland should be waiting for!!

    Statistics were never your subject was it?? Neither criminology, was it?? In all fields I mean!!

    You should get a good cold shower, get your brains a little working for as much as they can. And start all over again with being a baby.

    Get your pampers wet, my little troll!!

  115. eyeopener

    It would be elegant dear Nano (bite) to tell first who you are and expose yourself before asking sombody else to do that!!

    Get a bad taste in my mouth!!

  116. Andy

    Tj is a was a part of an international group. The new innofactor has for instance Norwegian shareholder. Patria has Eads in with 27% share.

    Want more?

  117. Andy

    demon, if you compare Ollila with Stephen Elop, who has a better record?

    Have I already told you that this is not homma forum? Unless I haven’t I do it now. This is not homma forum, go there if you like it since you mention it so often.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Vlada and welcome to Migrant Tales. I like your sense of humor! 🙂

  118. justicedemon

    Andy

    You really don’t know much about Christian Clausen at all, do you? However, I was right about the basis for your belief about his relocation. This was just your prejudice talking.

    ***

    Major economic crimes always receive prominent news coverage. You are welcome to search for even one counterexample to the assertion that no foreigner has ever even been suspected of a seven-figure economic offence in Finland. In other words, an offence in which the total claim for damages addressed to the offender(s) was at least EUR 1 million.

    All you need is one counterexample. It can’t be that hard to find, can it? Until you find it, however, Finnish citizens remain 100 per cent more likely than foreigners to commit these serious economic offences. In other words, if we had no Finnish CEOs, then we would have no offences of this kind, because statistically foreigners do not commit offences of this kind in Finland.

    You can search for economic offences on the public database engine of Statistics Finland here. To find the type of offence committed by Kari Uoti and Ulf Sundqvist, for example, simply select All areas / RL 39:1a§ / Rangaistusten lukumäärä / (vuosiluku) / Oikeudessa tuomitut. You will find that there were 90 such convictions in courts of first instance in 2009, for example. Repeat this procedure for other offences according to their references in the Finnish Penal Code. The kind of offences that you are looking for are listed in various comments above.

  119. Andy

    Regarding Nokia, Ollila is probably the most successful leader in the cell phone busineess ever. He made Nokia to a leader in this business during the period 1992-2006. Nokia is still market leader but since Ollila left the lead has shrank sigificantly.

    If you relate Nokia and Ollila with your strategy in use with the other big competitors Siemens (earlier), Samsung, Motorola and others then you would probably come up to seven digit in percent. Finland n its population in relation to the market share that Nokia created during the time of Ollila. When you see what Elop has done…..yeah, I guess it needs no explanation.

    To reply to your example, the Siemens merger was initially refused because of corruption

  120. Andy

    ”Viranomaisten resurssit ovat rajalliset. Se voi tarkoittaa sitä, että vain törkeimmät talousrikokset voidaan viedä eteenpäin”

    This amplifies my suspicion that pizza places don’t fall under the the investigation of serious crimes. A friend worked for the tax authorities said 7-8 years ago when there were still recources available for inspections that the foreign food places always had new cousins or relatives working there….and that they didn’t know that oone has to register by the tax authorities before to take up a job.

    http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/109109-%E2%80%9Dvain-torkeimmat-talousrikokset-tutkitaan%E2%80%9D

  121. Matt

    Bonjuorno

    Have to agree that Ollila was the guy leading Nokia to success for 1,5 decade and the world market leader. If you compare Ollila and Elop=night and day or loss and profit. Elop lives on Ollila’s assets but for how long?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Matt and welcome to Migrant Tales. Can you imagine I met Ollila the first time back in the late-1980s, when he was CFO. Times have changed a lot since then.

  122. justicedemon

    Andy

    1) How does any of that stuff about Nokia refute the point that no foreigner has ever even been suspected of a major economic crime in Finland? This is not about whether these businesses are profitable, but about whether their managers are honest. After all, Patria made a bundle on the Slovenian APC deal, but that does not close the case on the associated bribery investigation concerning CEO Jorma Wiitakorpi.

    2) Are there any foreigner-operated pizza businesses in Finland that even have seven-digit turnover, let alone the scale of operations that would enable a seven-digit economic crime to occur? In any case, you have still not identified any case in which a foreigner has been suspected of a major economic crime. Talking about pizza businesses is simply blowing smoke. Where have foreign CEOs of major Finnish corporations ever been suspected of serious offences such as gross embezzlement, cartel forming, insider trading, defrauding of creditors in bankruptcy or serious accounting fraud in Finland?

    You will have to do better than this to show that Finnish CEOs are statistically anything less than 100 per cent more dishonest than foreign CEOs, as estimated by the hommaforum logic that you apply to foreign population groups in Finland.

    Incidentally, you are moving the goalposts by trying to include uninvestigated or unreported offences. Do you do likewise with the statistics on foreign population groups in Finland? That sounds a bit too much like the clever tricks that Mark has been playing, and will involve you in the messy business of estimating the relative propensity to report and investigate intercommunity and intracommunity offences. I’m sure that if you take one step down that road, then they will drum you out of the hommaforum club for being too damn smart.

    Also incidentally, this is the same hommaforum logic that was applied to Finnish immigrants in Sweden in the 1960s and 70s, leading to newspaper headlines such as en finne igen and finnjävel. Presumably the hommaforum logic was equally sound in that instance as well. After all, you can’t argue with facts: these Finnish industrial workers were far more prone to violent crime than the average Swede.

  123. eyeopener

    A firend who worked for the taxation informed you over these issues??

    Isn’t he trespassing privay laws here, dear Andy!! Have to talk with the taxation office about this.

    But………. you are just trying to make you a BIG BAG OF SHIT again by involving non-existing friends who -by accident- have this information?

    7-8 years ago?? Relevance nowadays??

    Living in the past dear Andy??

    Did you have a long longlong winter sleep I guess.

    And………..Kaamos!

    SSnnnnnnooooorrrrrr 🙂

  124. Andy

    well, in the sense it’s relevant that it’s a crime. Blame the employee, she broke her confidentiality. :), want the name? Of course it happens 2day if it happened then especially since there is no control anymore. If you advocate crime, up to you.

    demon. If you say that Patria has been convicted for economical crime with at least 25 % share of foreigners. Then foreigners are is not only suspected but also convicted.

    You can for instance clarify the responsability of Bochum case, I think that majority of Nokia was in foreign ownership at that time.

    The other It firm you gave has also foreign ownership.

    Shareholders are responsable for their shares in the company, thus a part of the company. Also foreigners. 🙂

  125. Andy

    Well, I did not live at that time but I have seen a few by Slussen drinking. What is wrong with that, it is not forbidden or is it?

    Of course what you forget to mention is that Swedish firms came here to recruit people, thus Finns were wanted. Also you try to abolish my words, I said openly that Finns are of violent species. Though this has changed slightly, staff on the Viking and Silja lines say Finns drink and Swedes are defiant on the cruises.

    Raed the posts before you shout. And make you research as well. :).

  126. Andy

    Demon, since you want to know all these infos I suggest you walk down to the tax office. The tax register is public, at least to a wide extent.

  127. justicedemon

    Andy

    You are really thrashing about on this one.

    The Finnish police have only had two suspects in the Patria bribery case, both of them Finnish citizens working in senior capacities at Patria. Obviously as the case has an international dimension, there is a parallel investigation going on in Slovenia, but this does not concern foreigners in Finland or criminal offences under Finnish law.

    Nor is this about the nationality of company shareholders, as they are not in a position to commit such offences in relation to the company unless they also hold some fiduciary position (e.g. company director or CEO). Ordinarily shareholders are the main victims> of serious economic crimes such as insider trading. In a typical case of insider trading a director, CEO, CFO or other “insider” will sell shares (or advise associates to sell) after learning insider information that will cause the share price to fall when it becomes public. For example if Elop advised you to sell Nokia shares ahead of an upcoming profit warning, then this would be insider trading.

    You don’t seem to understand the legal status of shareholders in a limited company. The clue is in the word limited.

    And of course, you have still not identified any foreigner in Finland who has even been suspected of a serious economic offence under the Finnish Penal Code. Therefore by your own infallible hommaforum logic, a major Finnish corporation should avoid the risk of appointing a Finnish CEO and appoint a foreigner instead.

  128. justicedemon

    Andy

    Long rambling contributions with lots of dodgy links tend to get diverted by the spam filter. Messages with links in general also tend to get held in the moderation queue, unless the links have been approved before.

  129. Andy

    r u still angry over that your hypothesis screwed over that foreign managers are the best in Finland?

    Clausen got his money when he became Finnish
    Ollila, the pioneer of the mobile industry worldwide (from small Finalnd)
    Need more examples?

  130. Jankka

    I just want to comment on this one.

    ”May be this could be an incentive for some ethnic immigrants, as their unemployment tend to be relatively high. On the other side other immigrants do pretty well, better than Finns to be precise.”

    It’s a mental/cultural state that some don’t work. It can’t be a geographical thing since two neighbouring countries differ 40 % in unemployment statistics. Thus can also the genetic factors be excluded.

    If you Enrique want solutions then it is simple. Those immigrants who don’t have a job, GET A JOB. I know a few African who always had a job wherever they were, and they were proud of what they did. Even if it was rather menial tasks.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Jankka, welcome to Migrant Tales.

      –you Enrique want solutions then it is simple. Those immigrants who don’t have a job, GET A JOB.

      I don’t think that is a fair proposal. The question should be opportunity to get jobs. And why do you single out immigrants? Certainly there are many Finns who are unemployed.

      I feel uncomfortable when people are quick to blame unemployed people for being lazy when in fact there are other issues. Do you really think that an immigrant of all people will come to Finland to live off social welfare? A few like some Finns but the majority want to make something out of themselves. That’s what motivates immigrants to move to other countries: to improve their standard of living. The way you do that is by getting a job.

      What is your opinion about the Romany minority? Do you believe the discrimination may play a role?

  131. justicedemon

    Andy

    Now you have simply lost the thread of the discussion (Ollila and Clausen have not even worked in the same industry, let alone the same company, ffs), which was about a watertight hommaforum statistical demonstration that Finnish managers are 100 % more likely than foreigners to commit seven-figure economic crimes. This obviously gets right up your nose, because you are unwilling (hopefully not unable – or you are in real trouble) to see how the hommaforum statistical method is fatally flawed.

    We can pursue a similar and even more glaring line of hommaforum reasoning to prove that foreigners make the best government ministers in Finland. The High Court of Impeachment has convened only four times in the history of independent Finland and has tried a total of nine defendants for offences in office. Three of these were acquitted and in one case the charge was dismissed for lack of evidence (although the defendant subsequently lost an associated claim for defamation when the Appeal Court of Turku found that the charges preferred at the High Court of Impeachment had been “probably true”). All nine defendants were Finnish citizens and government ministers. No foreigner has ever been charged with an offence at the High Court of Impeachment. Therefore Finnish government ministers are 100 % more likely than foreigners to commit a crime in office, and the only statistically honest government minister is a foreigner.

  132. Ronald

    Hi all

    I read Jankka’s post. I Suppose in Migrant tales immigrant issues are discussed, no?
    And it was also giving credit to those immigrants who do well, better than Finnsh people on the labour market.

    Migrant was asking for solution-is it wrong to say what you think? Is providing a solution to point out the guilty one?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Ronald, welcome to Migrant Tales. Why do you think we would object to what you think? As long as it isn’t outright racist or offensive, please feel free to take part in the debate.

    • Migrant Tales

      Even if it is different, some anti-immigration groups in Europe and Finland, like certain PS members, react the same way as the Klu Klux Klan did in the United States. Is it a prelude to the history of some minorities in this country? Let’s hope not.

      When looking at these groups we must always put the present timeframe in context. Anti-immigration groups in Europe is a close relative of the Klu Klux Klan but in a European and 2010s context.

      The video clip states: “The Klan began a violent campaign to terrorize immigrants and exploit fears that immigrants threatened American values (sounds familiar?). By the 1920s Klan membership was over 4 million….”

    • Migrant Tales

      Here is the quote of the day that goes to Alan Bruce: “The way this discussion here has developed is scary. I find it hard to see such written evidence of contempt, ignorance and naked racism. Blaming the immigrants for crime is like blaming the poor for their poverty. The logic of such hate speech is a policy of expulsion, victimization, internment, harassment and threat. If not worse. This serves no interest.”

  133. Ronald

    Nobody has stated lazyness here but you Migrant. And since it is proven by few examples that the Finnish way is good, so why not adapt.

    Regarding the Roma communities. I have good and bad experiences of them. I worked in a shop and the Romas were the only ones threatening the staff, on a few occasion things escalated to physical contact. There was a roma woman who stole, she was caught but she did not reveal her identity to the police :). Another roma man said when I asked him to move his car away from the door ”do you say that to the valkolainen as well?”

    I used to know roma guy who was working out, he did not wear a shirt, he was very muscular. He then came to the shop I worked in,,,,”want some sterioids?” He guaranteed me of having money before paying of his purchases by showing his range of credit and debit cards. Actually this guy had a job earler but some sources said he quit when net salary wasn’t the same as gross.

    I took a course in järjestyksenvalvonta. The Romas were pointed out as a dangerous group in restaurants bars etc.

    • Migrant Tales

      Ronald, welcome to Migrant Tales.

      Your thread speaks only bad things about a group like the Romany minority. In the same way, I could list the same things about Finns or any group.

      The problem here is seeing an individual as a group. The Romany minority raise a lot of uncomfortable questions about us as a society in Europe and especially in countries like Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and others today.

      There is so much racism against the Romany in Finland that I was taught as a child that EVERY Romany minority member was a crook. Yes, EVERYONE. For some reason that 100% claim was ridiculous. How could EVERY person in a group be a crook? Hogwash, of course.

      Trying to find the root of racism against the Romany isn’t hard because it is so widespread. I have a Russian translation book called “Venäläinen lukukirja” published in 1900. One of the translation exercises talks about a stolen horse by a “Gypsy.” This was a pretty common perception of the Romany back then.

      The Romany are as well a stark reminder of what can happen to some immigrant groups in Finland. It shows that our society has the capacity to exclude people for centuries. Is that what is happening now?

      Scary, no?

  134. Antsa

    I did not get response from Associate editor Justicedeomen upon the controversy below.

    Demon says ”ll you really need to do at this level is apply the same bullshit statistical “methods” to show things that get up the racist troll’s nose (for example that the only honest bank manager is a foreigner”, but according to the article in Kauppalehti he became FInnish (not citizen) and started to make money when he was ”Finnish”

    May be this could be an incentive for some ethnic immigrants, as their unemployment tend to be relatively high. On the other side other immigrants do pretty well, better than Finns to be precise.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Allan, the KKK was always a scary outfit, even today.

      Welcome to Migrant Tales.

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Niel and Ilze, welcome to Migrant Tales.

      What would you like to bring to our debate on immigration, immigrants and new identities?

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, this clip, which is quite disgusting politically and an example of the fascism that I spoke of in a 2010s context, tells me worrisome things about you. Are you praising these groups? “European brothers?”

      Your naivety and ignorance about fascism shines through the video clip. Fascism in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s were many times more violent than the KKK.

      This video tells me that you are pretty young, probably about four generations distance from WW2. The further from WW2 the more some idolize and romanticize fascism. A good example is PS MP Juho Eerola and his aide, Ulla Pyysalo. Eerola has written before that he likes Mussolini’s economic system because it had no unemployment. Pyysalo applied for membership in a neo-Nazi association, Suomen Kansalinen Vastarinta. You can read all about these things on Migrant Tales.

  135. Andy

    here one post I did not post earlier

    scroll up or scroll down the sources are there

    justicedemo

    My view has been for the past 15 years that econimical gangstas get by too easily. The same applies to violent crimes such as murders, robberies, assults, rapes, kidnapping, deprivation of liberty or false imprisonment, blackmails. However, I clearly distinguish between human and money, life and security first money then. Doing otherwise would be a mistake. It’s seems odd that you bring money matters in the discussion of violent crimes. Is it perhaps more important for you to get the money laundrers convicted than to get rapers and other gangstas behind bars? Feel free to so but don’t cry when people get beaten up, raped, murdered or become victims of other similar crimes.

    Italy managed to introduce a law for sending (able to send) people to life emprisonment of rape on minors. That fact that 3 Africans in Oulu got away with sentences ranging from 2 years and 8 months to 4 years and 6 months after raping a 30-year-old woman, cutting off her genitals and so forth is a joke. These men probably resemble more animalistic slaves from the savannah than the humans we are used to and should be sent for life in jail. In event of release they should be deported.

    Isn’t statistics ruling out the cause of chance/random? So one individual may be chance, 2-5 may be chance but 20 is no longer chance. U c Inferno my point?

    Should you say that there is simply one good foreign bank manager of all foreigners in Finland (underrepresented) ? Does this also mean that foreigners are less likely to get big posts? N IF THEY DON’T get the big jobs they can’t accuse hate speech/discrimination since there is the ratio 1:10 for these crimes in favor of the FInns. FInns convicted ten times less than foreign people for hate speech/discrimination. According your reasoning demon most of the foreigners are loosers since they are not good bank managers. (source above)

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, at university I was taught something about statistics: “You can prove anything with statistics.”

      A better method of understanding a group is getting to know real people who live in a real world. Try it you may be surprised.

  136. Andy

    continuing…

    Should you say that there is simply one good foreign bank manager of all foreigners in Finland (underrepresented) ? Does this also mean that foreigners are less likely to get big posts? N IF THEY DON’T get the big jobs they can’t accuse hate speech/discrimination since there is the ratio 1:10 for these crimes in favor of the FInns. FInns convicted ten times less than foreign people for hate speech/discrimination. According your statement then most of the foreigners might be loosers since they are not good bank managers. (source above). And what is to be into consideration in economic crimes is that it is often represented by organizations or coorporations so distinguishing between company and individuals may be difficult.

  137. Andy

    ……..Here is also an article of your favorite year, 2008. What I have forgotten, there are 2 types of Somalis, Somalis with Finnish (4958) and Somalis with Somalian (4 852 ) citizenships. Therefore many statistics should be doubled as those figures where nearly identical. Just to mention, in Sweden as we all know ”Malin and Amanda” (See google pics 4 hits) were nearly beaten to death by 2 Sweeds ,a Finn and a Somali but the press were later on forced to say that yes yes they were all of Somalian origin. And we all know how Finland is the little bro of Sweden, copying and pasting most of the good things has happened already for a very long time so why not in censorship as well. Other sources tend to apply to this censorship strategy as well. So in statistics where there is 100% of Finnish there might be a percent or two of foreing origin people due to this policy of producing statistics.

    http://suomaliansanomat.blogspot.com/2008/05/somalien-rikollisuudesta.html

    • Migrant Tales

      I would like to ask the bloggers if they think that Andy’s links, which are pretty racist forums like Suomaliansanomat, should be used as “valid” sources on Migrant Tales? I think that debating the racism on this sites would be more appropriate. There are tons of hate forums where these links can find a home – not Migrant Tales.

      How do others feel about this?

  138. Andy

    I just wanted to illustrate Europe as it is closer to Finland than US after you had taken the first step in bringing this groups up into discussion

  139. Ronald

    scroll up again, the first sentence.

    I would also like to know what sources are qualified. What field and what university did you study in?

    Regarding the Roma, those were my perceptions in my own eyes. No other individual acted like they did. And that they are dangorous was said as a precaution in course. You may interpret it how you want, I suppose bouncers want to stay safe.

    As you know for Roma people from Romania and Bulgaria are allocated several hundred millions annually from the EU-budget to improve the status of these people. Though, they end up beggin in the streets of European cities.

    • Migrant Tales

      Where did I study? University of California at Los Angeles, Turku University and Helsinki University. Anthropology and sociology.

      I don’t need to show you if I am qualified to speak about racism since it is every citizen’s duty to know what it is and how it undermines our values.

      What I don’t understand is why you want to reinforce stereotypes we have seen and heard before by a group. Can you bring something more proactive to the table like how to include the Romany in our community.

  140. Hassan

    Here my advice for foreigners in Finland.

    1. Learn the language
    2. Make sure you have a job and pay your taxes
    3. make Finnish friends, do some sports or take a course in arts/handicraft etc where FInns go
    4. stay off the crime path
    5. get a finnish girlfriend or boyfriend

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Hassan, very good advice. In point two it would be important to join a union so employers don’t exploit you. We have seen this in Finland many times before. If you are not organized you are going to be exploited to the bone in some jobs.

  141. Andy

    Migrant Tales

    I wonder if you categorize people into qualified and not qualified?

    You said ””Do I need sources to back what I say? Certainly. Those sources are people who I know and members of the community.”

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, I think you need a few lessons in integrating into our society and values. Have you read our Constitution, for example. I don’t need any sources to prove if racism and discrimination are wrong. Far-right groups move the goal posts by making up stories and worlds that are far from our values.

      Far-right groups make up their own reality and, worse, believe in their ethnic fairy tales.

  142. Ronald

    Migrant Tales

    The so called racistic source contained 7 official sources, Turun Sanomat, Tilastokeskuksen tietojen mukaan, Tilastokeskuksen mukaan, SA:n rikostilastoissa on selvästi nähtävissä rotujen väliset erot rikollisuudessa, yrittävät epätoivoisesti kiistää, tilastojen mukaan, idinkielenään jotain muuta kieltä kuin suomea, ruotsia tai saamea puhuvia, Kirsi Westphalen, Mikko Puumalainen actually eight all and all.

    Is it perhaps you who should go on the course?

    • Migrant Tales

      So, what you are implying is that Romany minorities are criminals and we should hold them in contempt, right?

  143. justicedemon

    Andy

    A terribly long-winded, wide ranging and barely coherent diatribe from you comprising four contributions submitted at about 06.50 this morning.

    Buried at various points in that screed is your final admission that Finns are statistically 100 per cent more likely than foreigners to commit major economic crimes. That must have been really painful for you to admit after all of that thrashing about.

    But of course anyone with an ounce of academic acumen can see that there was no need to admit any such thing. The flaw is in the hommaforum interpretation of statistics.

    Here’s another one for you: find me one professional social scientist or statistician who uses unweighted statistics and ignores the need to compare like with like. Show me one Finnish government policy that is based on such an approach. You will normally find at least a reference to the statistical basis of government policies in the general justifications section of government bills to parliament.

  144. Ronald

    I am not implying anything.

    You asked that question in a post. I only said what my eyes saw :). Additionally I could have added what other people have seen and said. One family member had a shoe shop where the Romas stole, he started giving them decent discounts and the shoplifting stopped. Positive discrimination.

    You are the big leader here sitting on all answers. I do not know how to deal with these issues.

  145. Mark

    Ronald

    You are the big leader here sitting on all answers. I do not know how to deal with these issues.

    You can start by recognising the problem is a social one, not one of ethnicity. It is not an ethnic characteristic that lead Roma to live the lifestyle they do. it is the result of social conditions, contributed to be the wider society and by the choices of Roma themselves. Focusing on ethnicity only furthers stigmatisation, which compounds the problems.

    What I mean is, if you are genuinely concerned for the Roma, then I suggest you educate yourself more about them and their problems. However, if you only want to use the widespread and widely supported discrimination against them as a way to further a nationalist or racist political agenda, you deserve to be put out on a stake, mate, figuratively speaking, of course.

    As you know for Roma people from Romania and Bulgaria are allocated several hundred millions annually from the EU-budget to improve the status of these people. Though, they end up beggin in the streets of European cities

    Of the €100 million the EU set aside for integration programs for the Roma at grass roots level, only 30% has actually been used. Romania, where many of the problems begin to lead to migration elsewhere are only using 18% of the funds, which doesn’t equate with their role in the problem.

  146. Andy

    Now, I provided a blog with 8 sources, more than any post in this forum.If the time is bad why don’t you tell everybody when they should enter their stuff.

  147. Steve

    Mark, u seem to be the wisest here.

    Could you do a complete crime statistics on Finns vs foreigners so we can end this discussion. And foregners with Finnish citizenship should be considered foreign.

    And then we can use the plain result according Justice Demon’s propaganda, he is an editor of this forum, right?

    ”The plain statistical FACT is that ALL serious economic crime IN FINLAND is committed by Finnish citizens. Foreigners do not commit such offences IN FINLAND at all, and as you have previously insisted, Finland is where we live. Therefore the only honest bank manager in Finland must be a foreigner.

    The statistics don’t lie, do they?”

    • Migrant Tales

      Hi Steve and welcome to our blog, Migrant Tales.

      What JusticeDemon is pointing out is the weakness of the statistical argument, with which you can prove almost everything.

      Statistics may not lie but, if manipulated correctly, can prove almost anything.

  148. justicedemon

    Andy

    I provided a blog with 8 sources

    You linked to a well-known hate speech site that also inteprets statistics using precisely the same hommaforum fallacy. That’s rather like confirming something that Goebbels said about Jews by referencing remarks from Himmler, Streicher, Eichmann, Koch and Mengele.

    Nevertheless, through that hate speech site you claim to have provided “8 sources”. Now please explain how you manage to count a person as a “source” supporting a claim when the hate speech site merely says that the person keenly contests that claim (“yrittää epätoivoisesti kiistää”/”yrittää fanaattisella vimmalla kieltää”). By that reasoning, I can count the Pope as a source in favour of abortion.

    I have already told you how to set about validating your statistical methodology. How hard can it be to find a reputable statistician who will confirm the hommaforum approach?

  149. Janne

    Justice:

    Out of 8 sources Tilastokeskus accounted for 4, Turun Sanomat for 1, 1 example from the US (let’s exclude it) and two subjective views of politicians.

    To quote yourself, ”Did you understand the very crude analysis that Mark provided of your raw statistics?”

    There you can intepret the highest body’s statistics of Finland however you want. I doubt that the pope is the correct parallell.

  150. justicedemon

    Janne

    Where is there any analysis of this statistical data by Statistics Finland? The analysis was provided by contributors to hommaforum specifically to provide a bogus justification for a certain prejudice. I have used precisely the same bogus analytical method to prove that Finnish citizens are less honest than foreigners in big business and in high political office. This had Andy desperately thrashing around because he was unwilling to admit the obvious error of not comparing like with like.

    There are plenty of other bogus statistical conclusions that can be reached by the hommaforum method. For example the incidence of Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s disease is massively higher for Finns than for Somalis in Finland (maybe due to the consumption of lenkkimakkara?). Somalis in Finland are statistically much less likely to need hip replacement and similar orthopaedic surgery (because they have stronger bones and joints?), and have a far lower general mortality rate than Finns. Indeed a hommaforumanalysis shows that excluding death from unnatural causes, Somalis are very nearly immortal.

    This is the same hommaforum statistical method that explains the massively disproportionate criminality of Finnish immigrants in Sweden in the 1960s and 1970s, resulting in those famous headlines en finne igen and finnjävel. Those Finnish immigrants were also “statistically” immortal by comparison with the average Swede.

    The claim of 8 sources was made by Andy based on a comment by Ronald that specifically included Kirsi Westphalen and Mikko Puumalainen, both of whom are distinguished in the hate speech site only for keenly contesting the prejudice in question.

    Please show me where Statistics Finland has claimed that the members of any population group of a certain age, sex, income group and urban or rural residence have greater or less criminal propensity than the corresponding members of another population group. Any reputable statistician (or, indeed, anyone with high school graduate competence in statistics) would tell you that weighting for such factors is essential before any scientifically credible conclusions can be drawn from raw statistical data. How does the hommaforum interpretation arrange this essential weighting? If you think that no such weighting is necessary, then please identify any reputable statistician from Statistics Finland or elsewhere who holds such an outrageously unscientific view.

  151. Andy

    JD

    I was referring to the population, not the statistic of crime.

    ..Here is also an article of your favorite year, 2008. What I have forgotten, there are 2 types of Somalis, Somalis with Finnish (4958) and Somalis with Somalian (4 852 ) citizenships. Therefore many statistics should be doubled as those figures where nearly identical. Just to mention, in Sweden as we all know ”Malin and Amanda” (See google pics 4 hits) were nearly beaten to death by 2 Sweeds ,a Finn and a Somali but the press were later on forced to say that yes yes they were all of Somalian origin. And we all know how Finland is the little bro of Sweden, copying and pasting most of the good things has happened already for a very long time so why not in censorship as well. Other sources tend to apply to this censorship strategy as well. So in statistics where there is 100% of Finnish there might be a percent or two of foreing origin people due to this policy of producing statistics.

  152. Andy

    I think I was referring to the crime stats earler

    Maahanmuuttajat yliedustettuina Helsingin väkivaltarikoksissa

    Ulkomaalaistaustaisten tekemät väkivaltarikokset ovat yleisiä Helsingissä. He ovat selvästi yliedustettuina poliisin tilastoissa.

    2000-luvulla poliisin tietoon tulleista raiskauksista yli 40 prosentissa epäilty on ollut ulkomaalaistaustainen. Ryöstöissä sekä kiristyksissä osuus on lähes kolmasosa.

    Helsingin Sanomat kävi läpi 2000-luvulla Helsingin poliisin tietoon tulleet murhat ja tapot, törkeät pahoinpitelyt, raiskaukset sekä ryöstöt ja kiristykset, joissa epäilty on saatu kiinni.

    Ulkomaalaistaustainen tarkoittaa poliisin tilastoissa henkilöä, joka ei ole syntynyt Suomessa. Tilastoissa ei ole eritelty tekijöitä yksittäisten kansallisuuksien mukaan.

    2000-luvulla ulkomailla syntyneiden osuus Helsingin asukkaista on kasvanut 6,1 prosentista 8,3:een.

    Maahanmuuttajien ikärakenne on erilainen kuin kantaväestön: heidän joukossaan on enemmän nuoria. Tämä voi vääristää tilastoja, sillä rikoksiin syyllistytään usein nuorena.

    “Jos ikä vakioitaisiin eli sen vaikutus poistettaisiin, prosenttiosuudet rikoksista voisivat laskea, raiskausten kohdalla yli kymmenenkin prosenttiyksikköä”, kommentoi ulkomaalaistaustaisten rikollisuutta tutkinut dosentti Juhani Iivari Stakesista.

    Helsingin poliisin väkivaltarikosyksikön johtajan, rikosylikomisario Kari Tolvasen mukaan ulkomaalaistaustaisten tekemät väkivaltarikokset ovat monesti raaempia kuin suomalaisten tekemät.

    “Kynnys käyttää ronskimpaa väkivaltaa on usein matalammalla”, hän kuvailee.

    Törkeistä pahoinpitelyistä yli 17 prosentissa epäiltynä on ulkomaalaistaustainen. Törkeiden pahoinpitelyiden tekijät ovat usein samoja henkilöitä, jotka syyllistyvät myös ryöstöihin ja kiristyksiin. Kyseinen joukko on Tolvasen mukaan suhteellisen pieni, “kuvioissa pyörii samoja naamoja”.

    Ulkomaalaistaustaisten tekemät raiskaukset huolettavat Helsingin poliisia erityisesti. Niiden osuus 2000-luvun aikana tehdyistä raiskauksista on ollut yli 40 prosenttia, eikä osuus ole laskussa.

    Iivarin mukaan seksuaalirikosten taustalla on usein kulttuurien törmäys, joka tulee ilmi suhteessa naiseen. “Kun kohtaaminen tapahtuu, ystävällisyyden ja kohteliaisuuden osoitukset voidaan ymmärtää väärin. Siinä voi syntyä tulkinta naisten saatavuudesta”, hän sanoo.

    Tyypillinen raiskaustapaus on sellainen, jossa nainen ja mies ovat lähteneet yhdessä baarista ja raiskaus tapahtuu esimerkiksi autossa tai kotona. Niin kutsutut puskaraiskaukset, joissa tuntematon henkilö käy äkkiarvaamatta kimppuun, ovat harvinaisia sekä maahanmuuttajien että syntyperäisten suomalaisten tekeminä.

    http://omakaupunki.hs.fi/paakaupunkiseutu/uutiset/maahanmuuttajat_yliedustettuina_helsingin/

  153. justicedemon

    Andy

    Wow – you are trying to analyse the content of statistics on Somalis in Finland. That’s a slippery slope to recognising that it’s vital to compare like with like. Better watch your back in the pub when your hommaforum buddies find out about this.

    ***

    The statistical distortion in that HS article is self-evident, and we have discussed it here before. Did you know that Helsinki alone has an immigrant population of several million?

    To bring the debate down to your level, however, a correspondingly distorted headline in Thailand might read “Finnish immigrants overrepresented in Bangkok child rape statistics” That would certainly have the Embassy crowd choking on their Martinis.

  154. Andy

    ”Did you know that Helsinki alone has an immigrant population of several million?”

    This may estimated but where is the evidence? With clear logical reasoning this is impossible, Helsinki I think has a population of 600 000. To triple or as you say several million this then you would see many hundred thousand sleeping on the train station, Mannerheimintie would be full of people sleeping as well as Töölöntori. Sure Lintsi would have people all year around. I suppose you don’t believe in these Migrant tales urself.

    Oops, this was only the suspects but the foregner was nearly 20 times more often suspects than the native population.

    http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raiskaus

    Aamulehti, does it meet your standards, original source ministry of interior? The ministry claims that 3 % of foreigners do 45 % of all rapes so if u start counting with ur fingers 6,9,12,15…is it 15 times more than the ethnic population. Though, there was a case with 152 rsapes that was counted as one then.. My fingers say 7, what do yours? 7 fingers and (half) thumb up since the 25,8 %. Plus of course these people with other origin than Finnish but holding a Finnish passport. My guess would be that the official figure would be around 45%+may be 10 % more who gained Finnish citizenship so we would be up to roughly 60 %. Hoppsan Kerstin, this is the same figure as in Espoo. 20 times more are foreigners raping than Finns in Finland.

    http://www.aamulehti.fi/Kotimaa/1194709026340/artikkeli/viime+vuonna+osuus+45+ulkomaalaisten+tekemat+raiskaukset+vaativat+tasmatoimia.html

  155. justicedemon

    Andy

    Several million foreign visitors pass through Helsinki every year. You can find the figures at MEK. If, like that HS article, you are unable to distinguish between an immigrant and a foreign visitor for statistical purposes, then you must include those visitors when you calculate the segmental crime rate.

    Otherwise you wind up with the kind of result that I gave you for child rapes by Finnish immigrants in Thailand. Isn’t it amazing that all of those elderly Finnish immigrants in Thailand have the energy to rape so many children?

    You are still making a fool of yourself because you are unable to see the fundamental error in the hommaforum statistical method, even after I have shown you how this method leads to uncomfortable conclusions, and even after you already admitted your error above.

    How do you feel about the fact that Somalis in Finland are statistically immune to geriatric illnesses and death from old age? Have you considered the statistical proof that they live forever, while incurring almost no costs in geriatric care? It is virtually unheard of for a Somali to die of old age in Finland. Statistically speaking, Andy, you will grow old and become a very expensive burden on the health service. Your Somali neighbour, on the other hand, will not.

    By the way, your finger calculations based on percentages indicate that you have no idea what percentages are or how to work with them.

    I asked you to find a professional statistician or social scientist who will stand behind your hommaforum analysis or any government policy that is based on such an analysis. How is the search progressing?

  156. Andy

    I presented my view in accordance with the source of the ministry. Then I calculated mine which was inline with the outcome presented in the article, then I asked your view. It is more likely that the ministery of interior has an expert that fills your criteria than a discussion forum you seem to dislike.

    Sure, interesting why Finland isn’t (to its full extent) using tools and equipment within Health- Analytical science that Finnish companies produce and develope. The price tag of heart- and veindiseases remains unknown but is probably rather big.

    Regarding Clausen, Nordea wanted a good candidate, they took the Dane. Hard for Finland to compete against the skillfulled labour market this plannet offers.

    Why CEO’s and other leading figures get convicted for economical crimes. Have you ever heard of the ”golden handshake?” Or kipuraha or similar? These are negotiated when managers sign contracts so that they can play by the boarder of the regulations. Shareholders run companies, via the board, via the CEO. When crime occurs, you need a scapegoat, the CEO. Why a CEO risk a career by taking unproportinate personal risks with personal consequenses? Shareholdes have this ”limited” responsability.

    I have an example that was actually rather funny. I worked for a stock-listed coorporation that opened an internal position. My friend signed up and he was elected for the job. He wanted to go on a few weeks holiday before starting the new job. When he returned from his holiday he went to the new spot. The new spot was empty, the company had fired 15-20 people working in that department when he was away. He descended one floor and returned to his former job. The people who worked in that department had been told one morning when arriving ”you are fired, pack up your stuff and leave asap, you will have this and this much salary based on the length of your employment.”

    So, nobody in the house knew of these job losses. CEO had been informed one day to get rid of these people. Shareholders run companies bc it’s in their interest that they get return on their money.

  157. justicedemon

    Andy

    There was nothing whatsoever of relevance to this thread in your last contribution.

    The fact that you simply swallowed the “statistical proof” that Somalis in Finland are immortal and immune to geriatric illnesses indicates that you really have no idea of what constitutes statistical proof. Everyone can now see that except you. As I have observed before, there is no law of nature that can force a debater even to accept modus ponens as a rule of inference. Instead in your case we shall just have to add to anything that you consider proved: “but he also accepts a statistical proof that Somalis in Finland are immortal and immune to geriatric illnesses”. Obviously you can live with that. LoL

    Your discussion of CEOs says nothing to explain the uniquely disproportionate statistical criminality of Finnish CEOs in Finland compared to foreigners, as demonstrated by a similarly fallacious hommaforum procedure. You obviously still do not understand the nature of limited shareholder liability and the corresponding criminal liability of executive representatives of a company, but it’s not my job to teach you. Nor is it my job to explain to you why the termination procedure that you described was illegal, at least if it occurred in Finland anytime since at least 1970.

  158. Andy

    Is it that’s why Somalis are immortal, that they live 30 years less than the extremely bad Finns and the lethal Finnish lifestyle?

    Life expectancy CIA Factbook

    Finland 79.41 2012 est.
    Somalia 50.80 2012 est.

    WHO

    Finland Life expectancy at birth m/f (years) 77/83
    Somalia Life expectancy at birth m/f (years) 51/51

    Unicef

    Finland life expectancy at birth (years), 2010 80
    Somalia Life expectancy at birth (years), 2010 51

  159. Andy

    f you relate to your only trumph you have, the economical crime it’s rather loose. You should count the share of foreigners who work in positions where you are able to commit a serious offense of this nature. And one case, one single case of a foreigner’s offence would of course explode the bank, literally.

    May be you envy Halla-Aho.

  160. justicedemon

    Andy

    Again this is all irrelevant. Gauged according to the hommaforum statistical method, Somalis are immortal and immune to geriatric illnesses in Finland. Your figures for Somalia tell us nothing about Somalis in Finland.

    ***

    But glory glory fanfare of trumpets! Now you finally say this:

    You should count the share of foreigners who work in positions where you are able to commit a serious offense of this nature.

    Please note, Andy, that this is no longer the hommaforum statistical method. Now you are insisting on comparing like with like, just as Mark demonstrated. That is called statistical weighting, and it’s something that you absolutely need in order to draw valid conclusions of any kind from raw statistical data.

    You have committed hommaforum heresy now, Andy, and you will have to watch your back in the pub from now on.

  161. Andy

    ”You have committed hommaforum heresy now, Andy, and you will have to watch your back in the pub from now on.”

    People go to pubs in order to drink. Scroll up to see the post whether I drink or not

  162. Andy

    What tells us something is that poor people die earlier, poor people in Somalia die 30 years before Finns. Somali unemploymentin Finland 50 %.

    A ”trained” brain will stay longer in shape, there are as how many studies as you want to have. I even have a book including hundreds studies from countries like the US, Sweden, UK) that I can lend you about the topic. Somali-FInns 50 % (only have a degree. What about the other Somalies?

  163. justicedemon

    Andy

    It’s too late to take it back now. You have very clearly admitted that statistical weighting is necessary in order to extract information from statistical data. You are wise to stay out of suburban pubs when you express such heretical ideas.

    So exactly how do you weight statistics on Somalis in Finland based on age, sex and urban or rural residence compared to typical offender profiles? Is an elderly rural woman more, less or equally likely to commit aggravated robbery compared to a young urban man, and what were the relative proportions of elderly rural women and young urban men in the relevant population segments during the year concerned?

  164. Andy

    sure, we are not true commanders in the best country of education in the world, along with Australia. Therefore, statistics are valid. Though, it is hard to find statistics that give chance for this interpretation u long for. The least overrepresented figure I found was 4,5, the most was 55 (more than ethnic Finns). Additionally with the low level of employment and low educational level there is only one option. It is a conscious thing, whether it depends on culture, religion or something related to that it is their mentality. A glance on Sweden, Uk brings up similar stats.

    Funny story, Odense nr nightclub takes no Somalis in. The owner said, they are not the only one we ban, but they are the only ones who don’t understand it. Same ban applies to all taxis as well in Odense. I have heard that something similar happens in Helsinki.

  165. Andy

    every thenth foreing company in Finland suspect of double invoicing, hoppsan Kerstin will they ”bang the bank?”

    Clausen is not gaining Finnish citizenship thouhg you so much like to talk about. Is he really qualified for a Finnish citizenship? That we will probably never know but what we do know is that there are criterias on living. Criterias that he will not fill. Find them out since you so keenly talk about this.

    The comment on SOmali population you write about 50 row comment that had zero to do with the Somali population itself. It was 2 figures from Tilastokeskus.

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, JusticeDemon knows his stuff. You know better than I that drawing conclusions about whole groups is like taking a stroll on wafer-thin ice in the end of April. I will give you a much better method: Acquaint yourself with real people. If you don’t know any Somalis and have never made friends with one, I can help you.

      It takes guts and a critical mind to NOT be fooled and taken for a ride with statistics, with which you can prove anything you want in the end. A lot of your prejudices will vanish into thin air if you make an effort to establish human contact. Is that what you fear?

  166. justicedemon

    Andy

    You are still incoherent. Write in Finnish if you must.

    Anyone who gained citizenship of another Nordic country at birth is eligible for Finnish citizenship by declaration after five years of legal domicile as an adult in Finland. This domiciliary period need not be continuous. Criminal offences are no obstacle to naturalisation, provided that they do not result in imprisonment.

    Figures from Statistics Finland for 1991 indicate that 62.29 per cent of the Somali-speaking population of Finland were males aged between 15 and 54 years. The corresponding figure for the population of Finland as a whole was only 27.36 per cent. How does the hommaforum statistical analysis allow for this demographic disparity?

  167. Andy

    JD wanted to inflict fear on me by your pub and suburb phobia. No thanks, fear is a state of mind that JD has chosen by his threats but I’ll skip it.

    MT, you did not give any answer whatsoever on what sources qualify. JD has listed that UN, Tilastokeskus and Unicef are not qualified sources.

    Since there was not a total demolishment of nationmaster’s statistics by JD I will agree with that as well. Finns rape a lot (3rd in the world) and by the statistic Somalis raped 55 times more than Finns.

  168. justicedemon

    Andy

    1) You are still incoherent. Write in Finnish if you must.

    2) Given your inability – as demonstrated above – to manage even simple mathematical operations with fractions, you will understand that we need to see your detailed calculations and methodology. You admitted above that it is important to compare like with like. Please show how you did this.

  169. Andy

    ”Write in Finnish if you must.”- why would I use a non-native language?

    minus the Somali-Finnish population, one intellectual said that it is 110 times more since the Somali with FInnish passport is as big. Somalis overrepresenting the Finnish rapers, if you take them away from Finns it reduces slightly the Finnish statistic. Hmm tricky, I would say 60 as it was suggested in the article. What is your guess?

  170. justicedemon

    Andy

    Just a little while ago you wrote this gibberish:

    every thenth foreing company in Finland suspect of double invoicing, hoppsan Kerstin will they ”bang the bank?”

    Now you say that you are writing in your native language?

    The really remarkable thing is that you can give such figures with a straight face. This only indicates that you have absolutely no idea what you are measuring. Like a Cuban friend of mine who said “minus 70 degrees” in response to my question about how cold it was on a recent winter morning in Helsinki, or the use of the expression light years in a recent Daily Mail article.

    • Migrant Tales

      Andy, are you ready to call it quits. I think JusticeDemon proved his point very well concerning your use of statistics. Move on and find another topic.

  171. Andy

    justicedemon

    Sure, I needed confirmation of the BIG BOSS. Though, you forgot to answer the question and rather prefeered to critisize 🙂

  172. Desertgnu

    I think the fantastic thing for Andy is that at last he is famous, or infamous, which is even better for him, as he is able to feel the ”victimisation” feeling characteristic of people with all kinds of issues who find the immigrant the handy mantle to blame all his woes on. If I was nationalist like you Andy, I would be ashamed of the image I give Finland. Luckily I am not, but I must add that there are a few of your kind, clearly, and it is currently ruining my view of this country. The killing in Olou, the latest, in the pizzeria, was appalling, but it does happen. But in no other country in Europe does a politician get away with saying the killer should get a medal. That and many other comments I have seen are a very unpleasant step further than just speaking your mind because you can. Incitement to violence is a crime in GB – rightly so. That qualifies.
    Andy, you are cannon fodder, you fool. Others will use you, and if you do commit your crime of crass stupidity which, terribly, looks like you might, you will have merely been used by others, with dangerous agendas you barely understand. So stop posting your ”calculations”, and making sweeping statements. In GB we do not have the statistics you even speak of about ”Somalis”. It is actually illegal under EU law to classify them as such, or indeed to collect data on any ethnic minority, and if Finland is publishing figures to this effect, that is a very worrying sign. Finland basically has next to no immigration. It currently does not attract the best of Europe and the world, probably due to perceived cold weather and issues, but Andy, you certainly do not help in this regard, and this means goodbye to your pension.
    I must add that your ”sweeping statements” about immigrants and foreigners surely do not include all those who roll up their sleeves and work hard, while trying to learn Finnish and n occasion – i have seen it, get screamed at for not speaking clear Finnish.
    When I am walking down the path to my flat at night, and I have a choice over a ”Somali” walking in the opposite direction, or a drunken Finn, of which their are quite a few here in this area, I can assure you I feel more safe with the former. Stop glorifying your version of Finnish people. You will be the first to put them into concentration camps when you get rid of all the immigrants. Then who will you turn to?

  173. Desertgnu

    Ronald

    You say

    ”As you know for Roma people from Romania and Bulgaria are allocated several hundred millions annually from the EU-budget to improve the status of these people. Though, they end up beggin in the streets of European cities.”

    Roma people do not receive these sums at all. I agree with the figures presented to this effect. Romania is notorious for not using the funds, or making use of them in other ways. Should you wish to be better informed about the Roma people, please visit ERRC (The European Roma Rights Centre, funded privately I may add by George Soros): http://www.errc.org – you will find a record of all Roma people currently being murdered, raped, beaten up, torched etc etc. Over 1 million Romas killed in the concentration camps of the II World War. Roma children experimented on in the death camps. When I was living in Hungary the Roma people asked ONE Hungarian politician politician to turn up to commemorate the million killed in Auschwitz and other death camps at their small wooden Holocaust memorial on their Holocaust day. Not ONE turned up, or even replied to the invitation.
    Roma people are European people. When I was travelling through Romania it wa a Roma family who insisted I stay to have lunch with them, and insisted I stay day after day. It was their white Romanian neighbours who warned me they would steal everything from me. Did they? Yes, they stole my heart. In Hungary I saw a Roma girl foraging in a big rubbish bin for food or anything. I reached into the bin with a bank note in my hand to give her money. She was so scared she jumped back and gashed her forehead very nastily on the corner of the bin, then ran away, bleeding. That is what a white man is to young Romas in Hungary; someone to fear.
    In Finland it is more complex, and certainly Romas here are a very different group. But it is clear that if you give children money to shut up instead of real affection and attention, then you will get what you get.

    • Migrant Tales

      Desertgnu, not only would I welcome you to Migrant Tales but roll the red carpet for you. Very well-though and valuable comments you made about the Romany minority and about the pizzeria killing in Oulu.

      What I have noticed happening in Finland especially in the past five years with greater intensity is that some people think it is fine the blaspheme and insult other groups as if it were normal. Some end up on our blog and when they argue they do so as if it were perfectly “normal” to defend a racist view or one that ends up excluding another group from society with the help of suspicion and urban tales. The suggestion by the PS councilman, Tommi Rautio, to offer a medal to the killer shows how far things have gone in Finland.

      It makes you think why the authorities, especially the police, permit crime statistics to be published according to ethnic group. In some of these it’s not clear whether they have been convicted.

      The Roma girl foraging in the rubbish bin in Hungary reminded me of a case of a Southern Kenyan student whom I yelled at from the car to greet her. She got scared because she was used to people harassing her in public. What a shock, no? And this happens in a country like Finland that has one of the most prized educational systems in the world.

      Thank you for making my day and Migrant Tales’ with your comments, which I am sure many will read with keen interest.

      We hope to hear a lot from you in the future.

  174. Andy

    Desertgnu

    I never asked what you think of me, not that it would interest me either.

    Unlike others who label(ed) individuals by funky names, I did not take part of that of it.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Unlike others who label(ed) individuals by funky names, I did not take part of that of it.

      Of course not, Andy. You go for gold and label whole groups.

      Some of the traffic Migrant Tales has received is from Hommaforum. Two names appear: Hannu and Andy. I am not suggesting that they may be those familiar bloggers who visit our forum. Hannu said he does not visit Hommaforum nor Scripta. Check it out: http://hommaforum.org/index.php/topic,67973.msg939893.html#msg939893

    • Migrant Tales

      OK, good one, Mark. Let’s see the response, if any.

  175. Andy

    Justice is the most commonly infiltrated guy here on homma and scripta, and he is not shy to admit that either. Mark dresses also frequently in blue-white colours. Migrant Tales probably only has a scarf.

    I bought a Swedish shirt before any Finnish stuff. Though I gave the Swedish shirt to a girl in Africa. My Finnish shirt is probably not nationalistic enough according your criteria, it is written Finland and no Suomi. The shirt is used only on ice-hockey gold medal celebrations and when I do my laundry.

    If you say that Finns are drunkards and Somalis are criminals, you label only partially for a reason I don’t know. May be we should say it the other way. Let’s try.

    Finns are criminals and Somalis drunkards. Well it doesn’t sound too bad. If you want to cry like Justice then you can always find a reason for it.

    • Migrant Tales

      –I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

      I have the same question as Mark and am a bit in the dark about this one: Migrant Tales probably only has a scarf.

  176. Desertgnu

    Andy
    The point of writing is to be read. The reader is therefore quite important. I am willing to listen or read what you have to say, but it needs to be a little more coherent. Or are you deliberately vague?
    This is the 2nd time you make a reference to an African as if it is heroic to do something normal to someone of a different ethnic group. It suggests a lot to me.

    I must admit it is not thoughts I have, as you mentioned, but rather worries. And yes, I agree, and smiled, to the well-put comment of you going for gold and labelling groups. Labelling whole groups is very questionable.

    Groups are fluid: they change. I have seen the word ”foreigners” used in this discussion, often quite negatively. I have also seen the word ”Somalis” used in a negative way. For me this is unusual. Do you mean the bus drivers? The ones who have a Finnish passport, and indeed are for all intents and purposes Finnish? And if they are not seen as Finnish, as was said in an earlier comment, despite speaking Finnish, carrying a Finnish passport and living in Finland, then what is it that is objectionable about them – leaves one thing, their colour. Old argument. Their ”differences”. Dodgy argument. It raises the question of different to whom? To the ”Finns”? Which ones?

    I am quite sure that many Finnish people would object to being labelled in one group by your standards. Ask anyone in Tampere to be labelled as the same kind of person as someone from Turku/Abo, or, as you say, ask yourself to be labelled as the same kind of person as the one queuing up at the Alco shop Friday evening to buy his/her vodka, then ask my friend, an adorable, kind Finnish nurse, what happens to the partner of that drinker, when s/he gets angry about whatever angers him/her. Yep, she repairs broken noses, faces etc from Friday nights to Sunday mornings, especially on one of the official drinking holidays – you know the ones. That, by the way, is also a criminal activity. It may not be assault against someone in the street, but the result is the same.

  177. Desertgnu

    Enrique

    Thanks for your warm, hospitable comments. It certainly seems to be a home away from home here; much needed. Your Kenyan story resonated with me.

  178. Andy

    lifts are not going all the way up.

    Scripta, Homma, Finnish shirt, nationalistic, Finnish stuff, Finland, Suomi.

    Blue-white are the colours in the Finnish flag

  179. Andy

    Justice

    If you think that Clausen will get a Finnish citizenship that was never mentioned, I suggest a bet with a reasonable stake.

  180. Andy

    Mark, perhaps you should lie here instead of on Homma

    A: Somalis commit /1000 people…

    Mark. or does it mean convictions?

    The comment of the reading skills should better be addressed to yourself.

    Then you lied regarding the Finnish serious economical crimes and your approach.

    I wrote this because in response to my argument about the need for weighting in statistics,

    Andy said this:

    actually for economical crimes you could do an international comparisation. Since you so openly advocate that Finns are fraudulent in this area

    Mark

    I did no such thing. At no point did I say that Finns were fraudulent. Andy was being fraudulent in presenting the bald statistic. In fact, I criticised Andy’s use of statistics, and I also pointed out that Finnish researchers are more than capable of doing proper weighted statistical research. As I work with Finnish statistical researchers, I know this to be true.

    The truth was that it was never pointed to you, but you put your nose there in Homma. JD dealt with this problem and he was asked.

    Mark

    ”You really make me smile, Andy. Absolutely true to form of populist / fascist”

    I stand by this comment. I stand also by that I will never sink to that level.

    A

    Here you can see that Turku abolishes your stigma that asylum seekers are boys. 70 % are girls of the so called foster child busniess. This is perfectly true. Asylum seekers are boys and girls. However, it turned out to be an obstacle for you to accept that there are also girls among the seekers as the statement was.

    Figures from Statistics Finland for 1991 indicate that 62.29 per cent of the Somali-speaking population of Finland were males aged between 15 and 54 years. The corresponding figure for the population of Finland as a whole was only 27.36 per cent. How does the hommaforum statistical analysis allow for this demographic disparity?

    How would you analize this? It’s more a question for researchers I think.

    May be that people from the southern hemisphere moving to the northern hemisphere will embody a masculine defense-mechanism that is mainly generated in a majority of male naissances especially at the Nordic altitudes.

  181. Andy

    Desertgnu

    ”If I was nationalist like you Andy, I would be ashamed of the image I give Finland.”

    What form of nationalist and what criteria do you insist on?

  182. Andy

    Is it this you mean? My statements.

    ”Finns are violent people, get used to that or try to make a difference yourself.”

    ”In fact it has nothing to do with the color of the skin. It is what is inside the skin that matters. I ran the other day to the tram, a black guy pushed to button outside n held the tram there.
    -Kiitos,-no problem- have a nice day-u too cheers. I thought, what a nice guy, this guy is able to pull through in the most of the places in the world. I have in fact also dated 2,5 black girls. 0,5 is for a mixed white and black.”

    ”I said also, ”And it is not about who is wrong or right and so forth. What counts is how to get a good life for everybody.”

    ”The same as I would say, Finns don’t drink bc my friends DO NOT drink. I see a drunk guy everyday in the street but since my Finnish friends don’t drink then no Finns drink. Isn’t that absurd?”

    ”Well, I did not live at that time but I have seen a few (finns) by Slussen drinking. What is wrong with that, it is not forbidden or is it”

    Sure, interesting why Finland isn’t (to its full extent) using tools and equipment within Health- Analytical science that Finnish companies produce and develope. The price tag of heart- and veindiseases remains unknown but is probably rather big

    ” I stated on another page that Finns are rape nr 3 in the world. Gloryfying?

    Please answer

    ”It currently does not attract the best of Europe and the world, probably due to perceived cold weather and issues” Has anybody said differently? What/Who where is the best?

    ”It is actually illegal under EU law to classify them as such, or indeed to collect data on any ethnic minority, and if Finland is publishing figures to this effect, that is a very worrying sign.” Is that so? And the act you refer to is?Why are EU-countries breaking this act? Including UK.

    ”I must add that your ”sweeping statements” about immigrants and foreigners surely do not include all those who roll up their sleeves and work hard.” How do you comment my statement? There was a comment one giving credit to foreigner who actually are better employed than Finns. One time is enough, nobody has stated otherwise.

  183. Andy

    JD

    ”To bring the debate down to your level, however, a correspondingly distorted headline in Thailand might read “Finnish immigrants overrepresented in Bangkok child rape statistics”

    How do you comment the South-American suspects jailed in the dance child sexual case?

  184. justicedemon

    Andy

    Obviously not by drawing racist conclusions.

    You have lapsed entirely into incoherence in this thread, Andy. At least learn to blockquote and organise your responses systematically.

    I understand that Timo Soini regularly wears a blue and white scarf, as he identifies with a London football club and its supporters. Do you know the motto of those supporters?

  185. Desertgnu

    justicedemon

    Very salient point. I remember the shock I got when I found that out. Of ALL possible clubs to support, he chooses THAT one. It speaks volumes.

  186. Desertgnu

    Andy

    Sarkosy, son of a Hungarian immigrant, had some difficulty explaining in legal EU terms when he was forcibly moving European citizens, including many Hungarian citizens, from France. To state he was removing Roma people would have been illegal. He still managed to do it. Didn’t help his polls, like he thought it would.

  187. Desertgnu

    Dueblöuto

    Because both French law and EU law will not let him remove an ethnic group (the Roma) from France, he had to choose his words very carefully and insist he had not figures whatsoever about the number of Roma people from Eastern Europe in France, that he had merely ordered the repatriation of East Europeans from France, on spurious grounds (meaning superficial, or not real).

    Because of the timing of the exercise, its futility, and the fact that Berlosconi in Italy then quickly announced very similar, as well as Sarkosy’s previous ”populist” measures, one does question if the motives are the ones announced, to say the least.

    This caused a furor in the EU, who obviously saw this as totally illegal, with comments from Brussels than this rivaled the deportations of World War II by the Nazis – (not a clever comment). However, this all mysteriously died down – politics is politics.

    Removing 1 European citizen from a European country that is not his/her own would be a hard thing to do. Technically they have the right to live there.I am not sue what the case is n Finland, as EU citizens have to ay €50 to reside in the country, and I am not sure what happens if they do not pay this fee. But technically it is They . To remove a whole (ethnic) group of EU citizens, disguising who is actually being moved was found illegal at first by the EU before the ”quietening down.”

    Of course it was illegal, and of course it was immoral and done purely to try to climb back up the polls. We know Sarkosy well. It is when you hear of individual stories of Roma persons who were fully-employed with a residence (eg musicians in circus or cleaners) who were ”repatriated” ”voluntarily” (according to official spokespersons) that you realise the facts on the ground were not exactly the same as those ”stated”.

    I will adapt a quote from a French film when I say that at 5:00 am you are in the Romaani Republic in many countries of Eastern Europe. That is when the Roma, or Gypsies are cleaning the trains, airports, streets, buses. To pretend otherwise, as many do, is a fallacy.

    In the Czech Republic many, and that is many Roma children are forced to go to school for mentally ill children or those with learning difficulties for various ”spurious” (again) reasons. Forget the human right issues here, but look at what kind of future you are giving your own country when you deliberately handicap your own citizens.

    When I was working at the Nagyatad refugee camp for Bosnian refugees, I befriended a family of refugees who lived in Serbia.They had Hungarian names and indeed spoke Hungarian. As the Hungarian prime minister had recently announced he was not prime minister of Hungary but of all Hungarians (a claim recently reiterated almost in kind by populist Victor Oban) and that any ”Hungarian” had full rights to come into Hungary, the family found they had the right to send teir two great kids to school, out of the refugee camp, instead of sitting around all day on irradiated land at the ex-Soviet military base behind barbed wire.

    They did so. Every evening the mother would scrub their only white shirts, one each, clean, and hang them to dry. Every morning she would comb their hair carefully, see that they brushed their teeth, and evry morning, bright with innocent smiles the two boys walked to the gate and were allowed out of the camp. Every day they returned a couple of hours later, sent home for being ”dirty”.

    They were gypsies. They had no-one to turn to in an effort to stop this. Every day, they tried again.

    .

  188. Rocker

    Desertgnu

    People illegally in a country are correctly expelled, also in France. (3-month rule)

    This was discussed in another link on Migrant Tales, given an official investigation report on the issue.

  189. Desertgnu

    Rocker

    What a load of bollocks.

    Read what I wrote – frankly I do not care in the slightest where this was discussed.

    Define ”illegal” in the context of the blanket removal of EU citizens. Make no mistake, not all of the persons removed from France had not registered – let’s be very clear about that.

    • Desertgnu

      Rocker

      Fair enough, but is reading the report supposed to ”influence me”? This all seems quite prescriptive to me.

      If an EU citizen wants to stay in a country they can step over the border for a minute and come back. ..or say they have done that.

      ”People who are illegally in a country are correctly expelled” …what is more interesting about that statement is what it does NOT say. MANY peoples’ status is fluid. They start as legal then change to illegal for example, for various reasons, or they are told they have a short time to get their stuff before removal, and manage to successfully appeal.

      Much of the time it is political. MUCH of the time. The idea that it is purely mathematical is beyond me, but does satisfy some primeval need for power among some. However, it is rarely successful.

      Check the figures for Mexicans RE USA, and how many Romas just returned to their jobs in France.

  190. Desertgnu

    Rocker

    Check what I wrote if you need answers. (You do). You seem to be a ”follower” to me. Have your own mind. Query what I write, and think for yourself. I like your use of capitals. They really make a difference. Not.

  191. Rocker

    the discussion was about this:

    ”Sarkosy, son of a Hungarian immigrant, had some difficulty explaining in legal EU terms when he was forcibly moving European citizens, including many Hungarian citizens, from France. To state he was removing Roma people would have been illegal. He still managed to do it. Didn’t help his polls, like he thought it would.”

    ….and then an objective group from the EU was employed to investigate it.

    ….then the report.

    The report doesn’t say anything what you or Madonna think of what happened in France. It’s about France and Sarkozy. You can’t even understand what you say yourself.

  192. Desertgnu

    Dear Rocker

    If there is one thing I cannot stand, it is people who live off the mundane, and who cannot rise above that to think for themselves.

    Sarkosy had some difficulty explaining what he did. Get that into your thick skull.

    It did not help his polls.

    J’étais là, Regard, et lis bien: là, en France, connard.

    Madonna also told her audience in Romania to stop being so racist against gypsies when they booed her Romaani dancers. Was she wrong about that?

    Allez, p’tit con va, tu connais rien. You guys here are fanatical about saying things like ”you lie to yourself” and ”you don’t understand what you say to yourself” I have seen that before here, in that naive country Finland. Those kind of statements are meaningless.

    Come to France, ask around. You might learn something. Go translate or ask me for a translation sometime!

  193. Rocker

    Mr D

    France, Switzerland and Finland are countries you have basically judged to hell.

    Anymore in Europe, a dozen perhaps?

  194. Desertgnu

    Switzerland, yes, I know it well.

    Finland – don’t be so pathetically sensitive and show some backbone. Nice change of subject suddenly I see. Bit of time wasting basically in your attempts.

    I quite like Finland.

  195. Rocker

    your view on Finland:

    ”Finland simply needs to grow up”
    ”I have a choice over a ”Somali” walking in the opposite direction, or a drunken Finn, of which their are quite a few here in this area, I can assure you I feel more safe with the former. ”
    ”Finland basically has next to no immigration. It currently does not attract the best of Europe and the world”

    🙂 🙂 🙂

  196. Desertgnu

    Excellent. You read comments. Good.
    Now grow up.
    Do you seriously think it is better to meet a drunken Finn walking towards you? Really?? (And you should quote whole contexts).
    Finland basically does have next to no immigration, read the figures and compare with say, Sweden, next door, as well as ANY ”western European country. It currently does not attract the best. Why not? Look at the reasons. Well if you were objective instead of a petty child you would take the whole context..

    ”my view on Finland” encompasses a whole lot more. I find you mentally-challenged to be honest.
    Get a backbone, stop being so over-sensitive, and if you are Finnish provide me a better option than the 1/2 hearted stuff you write. Still, I do find it amusing you have gone to the trouble of finding bits and pieces of my comments!
    Now, get a life.

  197. Desertgnu

    Which report would that be?
    Tell me what was happening in France at the time. Nope, didn’t think you could.
    Anyway, you have wasted enough of my time with your silly nonsense, just cause you’re bored and lack initiative or pride. No further of your inane, boring comments will be read/glanced at or answered by me.
    Good luck.

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