Finland’s immigration policy must look beyond Europe

by , under All categories, Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

One of the biggest challenges facing Finland in the next few decades will be defining what role immigrants will play in our society. Anti-immigration groups like the True Finns would like to place immigrants under a magnifying glass  (see Nuiva campaign document) while other parties have taken more lukewarm stances.

Setting the True Finns aside, the Social Democrats continue to speak about maassa maan tavalla, while Kokoomus is ready to increase labor immigration to the country.

If we could cut through the rhetoric of the different parties during an election year, we’d most likely end up with the same unanswered question: What do they really think about the ever-growing role of immigrants in Finland and their place in our society?

Are they speaking in favor of cultural diversity and equality on paper as long as things don’t change too much? Do those great Nordic values like equality apply only to us, not them?

A good measuring stick to see what the country thinks is by looking at how immigrants are labelled by the media and society in general. Even if the term maahanmuuttajia, or immigrants, is acceptable we venture into the twilight zone when we start calling people maahanmuuttajataustainen, or a person with an immigrant background.

The above-mentioned labels define the person as an outsider.

These small examples show a serious flaw in our thinking. A strong “us” and “them” divide does not make Finland any different from how other European countries see immigrants; they want foreign labor but expect them to move back to where they came from. A good example was Chancellor Angela Merkel claim in October that Germany’s multicultural society has failed.

Did multiculturalism in Germany fail because immigrants did not want to become part of German society or were they never welcomed in the first place?

Finland has to avoid perilous mistakes that hinder the inclusion process of immigrants into society. We have very good laws and a general disposition to advance the cause of social equality thanks to our Nordic welfare state.

A good model for Finland to follow would be to look across the Atlantic to The Americas. The big difference between immigration policy in countries like Canada or the United States to many European countries is that it takes into account the big picture, which seeks the inclusion of immigrants in society through acceptance and opportunity.

  1. Tiwaz

    “A good model for Finland to follow would be to look across the Atlantic to The Americas.”

    Bad example. Only an idiot would look into societies with totally different starting point and think that their solutions would have any hope of working.

    Apples and oranges. USA and Canada have been founded on immigration and EXTERMINATION OF NATIVES. Is this TRULY the example you want for Finland?

    Finland has long and strong cultural tradition, both lack in Canada and USA. Only recently (in terms of human history) they started diverting into their own cultures, and even that has it’s foundation in mixture of European cultures.

    Not true for Finland. If we want to look at examples, we must look at examples with similarily long and strong cultural history. In other words, rest of Europe. There we see how bad failure multiculturalism is.

    “The big difference between immigration policy in countries like Canada or the United States and many European countries is that it takes into account the big picture, which seeks the inclusion of immigrants in society through acceptance and opportunity.”

    And again you fail to grasp that in order to be accepted, you have to be prepared to integrate.
    Specially when entering society which has long established cultural tradition. In order to be included to such society, you have to accept the rules and norms of that society and act according to them.

    Furthermore, Canada and USA are already suffering badly from their immigrant policies. Canadians are distressed over amount of violence various immigrant groups from non-traditional (read, European) sources of immigrants have brought.

    USA has race riots, general mistrust between people and overall is going straight to hell as society becomes ever more polarized and divided due to lack of unifying force of culture.

    Or perhaps you would like to explain how LA riots where black people targeted Korean immigrants was sign of great success story of “inclusion and opportunity”?

    Take off your rose tinted glasses Enrique, look at reality instead of insisting to live in your self imposed delusion.

    Multiculturalism is total, absolute failure.

    • Enrique

      Tiwaz, your thread is a good example of how distorted things are in your mind as well as in some Finns. I would not be off the mark if your thinking is in line with the True Finns-Patriootti movement. With the help of your blatant ignorance you are giving recipes on how to “save” Finland. Your message is hostile and offensive. It is the message of the True Finns-Patriootti movement; it shines from your questionable name, Tiwaz, which JusticeDemon, myself and others have pointed out.

    • Enrique

      Hi newsextra1962, thank you for your comment. Ok, fine, now tell us what we must do?

  2. Tony Garcia

    It all depends on what we want – quantity or quality.

    If quantity, Finland just have to let its doors open to refugees from Africa in general and Muslim countries in particularly. Of course this approach will bring mostly criminals, welfare buns and Muslim terrorists, but quantity you have.

    If quality, however, the 3 parties policies can actually complement each other. We can create incentives to increase the volume of skilled immigrants (K), use a magnifier glass when deciding with group would be accepted (particularly when talking about groups with history of failure and violence in other countries) (PS), and demand to those who are allowed in to accept Finnish laws and rules (SDP). Of course this is approach is not as ease as the quantity one, but it can ensure a good adaptable productive immigrant community in Finland of witch will be very well accepted by the Finns.

    If your goal if social reengineering Finland you will only accept the quantity approach, however if Finland’s best interest is your priority… well..

    • Enrique

      –We can create incentives to increase the volume of skilled immigrants (K), use a magnifier glass when deciding with group would be accepted (particularly when talking about groups with history of failure and violence in other countries) (PS), and demand to those who are allowed in to accept Finnish laws and rules (SDP).

      Fine about the skilled immigrants but I have not seen any reliable study that shows what the True Finns allege: “history of failure and violence in other countries.” Do you think I could find these claims backed up with reliable studies? The SDP phrase is an expectation that can mean many things. Don’t ask me what they are trying to say with such a phrase. Do they mean that they don’t have to adapt to anything or that immigrants are welcome to our society which accepts cultural diversity and equality? It’s not clear.

  3. Tony Garcia

    “Ok, fine, now tell us what we must do?”

    England? I’m afraid it’s already too late. Finland? Look at the English example and don’t let it happen.

    • Enrique

      –“Ok, fine, now tell us what we must do?”

      My point here is that it is a dead-end comment. It only offers an opinion. There are no solutions. And anyway, no society on Earth is perfect. Since they are imperfect it means that they can be changed.

  4. Tony Garcia

    Your point is absolutely correct, once the mess is done nothing can fix it. That’s why Finland can’t let it happen to itself.

  5. Tony Garcia

    May not be for you but for me it’s quite clear. We only accept diversity as long as it doesn’t clash with our rules and laws, simple.

    “Do you think I could find these claims backed up with reliable studies?”

    Studies? Are you joking? Of course you can’t, those “studies” are done by people who live in their bubbles completely oblivious to the real world. To see the failure and violence of those groups you just need to have walk around where they cluster. Mikkeli, unfortunately, may not be the best place for it, you could try Malmo on a Friday night when they are practicing their national sport – petrol bombing police cars.

    • Enrique

      –May not be for you but for me it’s quite clear. We only accept diversity as long as it doesn’t clash with our rules and laws, simple.

      Funny logic. So the True Finns and you are the only ones claiming this? It suggests that the rest (Migration Service et al) are all incompetent and waves of criminals are getting into Finland through the back door. You don’t actually believe this? You can do that at True Finns’ rallies but it is difficult to get us to believe that.

  6. newsextra1962

    I seriously believe that we need to close our borders completely, we cannot go on allowing people into our country who wish to kill us and change the structure of our country.

    We are a small Island and the office of National Statistic’s predict we will hit the 70 million figure within 20 years at the rate we allow people in today, our NHS System, our education, our welfare system, our system of law is all under threat because of the open door policy, it’s time to say enough is enough.

    One of the major concerns also of people who wish to debate this problem in England is the constant use of the term racist or Islamophobia, the left wing media and all of the political parties use this term whenever they try to stop anyone discussing this problem, Lars Hedegaard of Denmark who writes and often speaks about the problem of the Islamification of Europe has just been acquitted of using hate language in a Danish court, whilst this is a plus for the people who support free speech the peoples of Europe need to be on their guard…

    • Enrique

      newsextra1962, I feel sorry that you feel so anxious. Do you think your suggestions are realistic? What will be the impact if we close your borders? What are you going to do with the people that live in your country?

  7. Tony Garcia

    “So the True Finns and you are the only ones claiming this?”

    Now I’m confused, isn’t the “when in Rome” policy coming from SDP?

    “…waves of criminals are getting into Finland through the back door.”

    Nop, they are getting through the front door, now they can even claim citizenship. For the time being…

    “…but it is difficult to get us to believe that.”

    I don’t think this is difficult, it’s impossible, when someone is on a holy crusade to social reengineer Finland nothing will change his mind.

    • Enrique

      Oy vey, Tony, so they are getting in through the front door now. Well, I guess you better get in touch with the authorities and report FIS for doing a shoddy job. I am certain that people are stocking up and getting ready for a war.

  8. JusticeDemon

    lol@Tony the TobyJug

    Studies? Are you joking? Of course you can’t, those “studies” are done by people who live in their bubbles completely oblivious to the real world. To see the failure and violence of those groups you just need to have walk around where they cluster.

    Why bother studying anything, when the prejudiced perceptions of Tony the Toby are so much more reliable?

  9. JusticeDemon

    newsextra1962

    I seriously believe that we need to close our borders completely, we cannot go on allowing people into our country who wish to kill us and change the structure of our country.

    Then you start with Kate Middleton.

  10. newsextra1962

    To me the problem of mass Immigration to our shores is not just a racial or cultural one, to me it is about those things plus the actual number of Immigrants that are entering our country.

    We don’t have enough jobs for our own indigenous peoples, we don’t have enough housing, we have school’s where the Language of the country is actually the second language spoken in some of our public school’s, in one part of London we have a borough where there are over 145 different languages spoken, the council translates all it’s information, the religion of the country, christian is being attacked all the time, the indigenous peoples are becoming second class citizen’s in their own homeland.

    As for the comment by JusticeDemon ” Then start with Kate Middleton” And your point is?

    Maybe the suggestions about closing the border’s is an unrealistic one but one which would solve that problem and in answer to your question about what would happen to all the people who already live here then obviously unless they had committed criminal act’s they would stay.

    And in response to enrique feeling sorry for me for feeling anxious I say thanks very much but that comment I believe to be rather derogatory.

    If you had your whole life and your families lives changed because of a political ideology that you had never voted for how would you feel?

    We are a small Island we only have so many resources to go around, why should it be that the indigenous peoples should lose out because of Immigrants who don’t wish to integrate into the country that they wish to support them, home them, educate them, feed them, educate them, and give them medical assisstance when and where they need it, Oh and they wish to kill you and many other’s given the chance??

  11. Tony Garcia

    “If you had your whole life and your families lives changed because of a political ideology that you had never voted for how would you feel?”

    This a very valid question, however you won’t ever see it answered here, my friend.

  12. Tony Garcia

    “As for the comment by JusticeDemon ” Then start with Kate Middleton” And your point is?”

    Be carful, don’t feed a troll.

  13. JusticeDemon

    newsextra1962

    Only the fascist BNP use the term indigenous in that way. To the BNP, this expression simply means “of sufficiently distant immigrant origin to pass a very superficial examination by the uneducated. Philip of Greece and Denmark passes that test, as does your entire largely Greco-Germanic royal family.

    You said that you “seriously believe that we need to close our borders completely“. This means keeping out non-citizens like Kate Middleton, thereby constructively deporting her future husband on the assumption that this couple intends to live together. Of course in order to do so, they would have to find a country with a more intelligent approach to immigration policy than “closing the borders completely”. The UK might then soon have a non-dom royal family.

    But of course, you didn’t think about that, did you? Even after I gave you a very obvious counterexample to consider, you are still asking for the point.

    By the way, for an “indigenous” person, your grammar sucks. Don’t the real English know the difference between the plural and the possessive?

  14. JusticeDemon

    newsextra1962

    The perceptive reader will notice that you have been comprehensively refuted, routed and outed, just like Tony the Toby.

  15. Klay_Immigrant

    newsextra1962, unfortunately Britain as a whole is a lost case in terms of multiculturalism and immigration. It has gone so far beyond the point of return that it would be impossible to reverse the damage. I lived in England for the past 12 years since I was 14 when I went to boarding school and I cannot wait to leave even though the much easier option would be to stay. The fact that the there is no respectable party that is anti-immigration means that it is only going to get worse. People don’t realise that according to the UN predictions Britain will have an extra 10 MILLION people in just 30 years time. Only 1 outcome will come from that, a decrease in the quality of life. I do feel sorry for the indigenous population who have roots from many years over generations before the WW2.

  16. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique let the people decide in April about immigration. The fact that the True Finns popularity in polls has increased from 6.4% to 16.6% in just 13 months rising from the 8th largest party to comfortably the 4th largest in voter share shows that the current immigration policy is failing otherwise the opposite would happen. Xenophobia or racism cannot explain this phenomenon.

    • Enrique

      Yes, Klay, good analysis. Mark my word: one slip in the polls, one disappointing election result, one implosion, one running out of the fire exit to hide the outrageous and offensive statements they have made on different cultures is going to be a long list of clinchers that will expose their true agenda, which is pretty empty.

  17. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Just out of interest, what is the policy of Perussuomalaiset on national incomes policy settlements, science and technology, cultural exports, climate change, GM crops, energy supplies, public broadcasting, the national cultural heritage, environmental conservation zones, urban planning, reform of public administration, dimensioning of regional health care provision, or intellectual property?

    You don’t know.

    Neither do they.

    So what makes you think they are fit to govern?

  18. Tony Garcia

    Klay good point, however I think we don’t really need to wait until April to know if Finns want or not multiculturalism posing their country. ehe existence of this very same blog is a proof of it. If Finns had embraced multiculturalism in general or Muslims in particularly this blog wouldn’t exist, would it?

    Enrique will never admit this because he’s for social reengineering Finland (and for that no one is better than Muslims). And the herd… Well, whatever Enrique says the herd will keep baa baa behind…

    • Enrique

      –Enrique will never admit this because he’s for social reengineering Finland (and for that no one is better than Muslims). And the herd… Well, whatever Enrique says the herd will keep baa baa behind…

      Do I sense a bit of sour grapes here, Tony? Just because people don’t want to jump on the bandwagon you cannot discredit globalization. Yes, you are right, the True Finns are going “win” the elections and we will close our borders and institulionalize xenophobia. But you know what is the problem with this plan? The True Finns don’t even have a credible and working plan here either.

      Tony, do you really know how Finland works, its politics, history? Can you find the context between all these and link them together? The first person the True Finns are going to disappoint is you.

  19. Tony Garcia

    “..discredit globalization”

    ????? Globalization? I thought we are talking about multiculturalism. Now to have globalization we need to let Muslims do whatever they want. Absurd.

    “…and institulionalize xenophobia”

    Ridiculous statement, ignored…

    “The True Finns don’t even have a credible and working plan here either. “

    They don’t need to, the just need to be a pain in the main parties arses. The main parties can do what must be done.

    “The first person the True Finns are going to disappoint is you.”

    Between be disappointed by the True Finns or have hordes of Muslims running loose… humm… I’ll take my changes with the True Finns.

    • Enrique

      I know you will never tell your real reasons behind your hatred towards a certain religious group. Coming from a Brazilian I think it is even stranger. But the response is quite revealing about your way of thinking: “Now to have globalization we need to let Muslims do whatever they want.” That sounds like Tiwaz.

      Do you reall think that Muslims “do whatever they want” taking into account that first we exploit them by placing corrupt regimes, destroy their countries and make sure the bashing continues in Europe? Really, Tony, you should think a bit what you are saying.

      By disappointment I meant that the party will not be able to come close to your wishes. Mark my words, it will implode pretty fast. Why? Because there is nothing essential holding together it except for hot air.

  20. Tony Garcia

    My “hatred” towards Muslims is the same than your “hatred” towards the True Finns. We disagree with the way they think and what they do.

    You are not going back to “teach me“ how Brazilians think about Muslims, do you? I have a few more videos from Brazilian comedy shows “talking” about Muslims, do you want to see them?

    • Enrique

      Nobody is “teaching you” anything. But yes, I do recall the huge social differences in Brazil. I guess you are turning that “hatred” on another group.

    • Enrique

      But there is a difference: I see and understand these shortfalls and consider it a pathological part of society. When you state that it is ok to “hate” Muslims because I “hate” the True Finns is ridiculous. That type of attitude, creating hatred, racism and excluding others by bigotry is simply wrong. It is not a western value nor does it have any place in the Nordic welfare system. That is the difference, Tony: You think it is ok to be a bigot while I think it is pathological. I write these words with my name while you do it anonymously. Isn’t that ample proof that there is something terribly wrong with your point of view?

  21. Tony Garcia

    Your argument is ridiculous, I’m sorry. My attitude towards Muslims is the same than your towards the True Finns. You disagree with their opinions and attitudes and you criticize them as had as you can.

    For me it’s the same when it comes to Muslims. If you are OK with violence, child mutilation, underage marriage, gender discrimination, anti-Semitism, honour culture, etc. good for you, but I’m not.

    The difference between you and I is that for me we both have different opinions, for you I have a wrong opinions while you have a right one. That’s called self-righteousness, and for me, this is pathological.

  22. Tony Garcia

    “I write these words with my name while you do it anonymously.”

    Why you do that? Why do you have to get so low? You know this’s not true, besides you I’m the only one who put the face on this blog.

    I do like to debate you but, honestly, I do pity you when you are so lost that you have to resort to this kind of nonsense.

    • Enrique

      –Why you do that? Why do you have to get so low?

      So low? I explicitly said to myself that I will sign every comment and story with my real name. Why? Because I have to stand by them. If you feel so passionate about a certain topic, don’t you think that doing it anonymously is not very honorable. It blows much of your arguments to pieces. If you believe in what you say, why do you do it anonymously?

      I used to be an active ham radio operator with the call signs OH2KMS and HK3KM. If you go to a frequency where there are pirate radio operators (citizen band, for example) the langauge and behavior is quite rude. They are on the airwaves and not accountable for their actions. If you go to a ham radio frequency where people have a “name,” or call sign, the atmosphere is totally different. Why? Because they have names and with that name they can be traced. In other words they are, like adults, responsible for their actions.

  23. Tony Garcia

    So lets try to get this straight once and for all, you don’t believe I’m who I’m saying I’m, is that right? The drive license I posted here was fake, is that what you believe?

  24. Tony Garcia

    So, let me see if I understood it correctly, all the arguments posted here anonymously are not very honorable and that blows it to peaces, is that right?

  25. Tony Garcia

    Klay, this is all BS. I’m not anonymously here, you know that and so does he. He usually goes for this tactic when the argument is lost. As you know, when the herd goes baa baa behind, really anonymously in that case, he’s no problem with it. You can easily see how annoyed he gets when I bring here black people putting their faces on display and denouncing the racism industry.

    I don’t know who you are, and I don’t care, the only think that matters is what you say, your ideas and opinions.

    One thing you must understand in this blog, and I’ve been here for more than 2 years, believe me I know, is that for those who agree with him 2+2 can be 5 with no problems, even anonymously.

  26. Klay_Immigrant

    ‘British people most anxious about immigration – survey’

    ‘Britons are the most anxious about immigrants, an international survey of eight European and North American countries has suggested.
    The Transatlantic Trends poll of about 1,000 people in each country found 23% of British people thought immigration was the country’s biggest problem.’

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12362464

    This is the dream of multiculturalism, hopefully Finns will have better foresight and never allow it to reach that stage unlike their European counterparts.

    Enrique before you ask what is multiculturalism again for the umpteenth time here’s a clear and simple definition for you.

    Multiculturalism is the promotion of multiple cultures at the expense of the native indigenous culture. Now don’t ever ask agin.

    • Enrique

      –Multiculturalism is the promotion of multiple cultures at the expense of the native indigenous culture. Now don’t ever ask agin.

      Native indigenous culture? That is a funny term. So, since you feel threatened, you will resort to cheap tricks like curtailing the civil rights of immigrants. Good, Klay. I suspected that. All whining — no effective solutions.

      I think JusiceDemon asked you a very effective question: Why do yo think you have the right to self-determination and countries like Egypt don’t? Do you want the answer? Neocon.

  27. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘We’re overrun’: Brits fear immigrants more than any other European nation, poll reveals

    ‘25% of Brits say LEGAL immigrants should be denied the NHS
    70% feel government is doing a ‘poor job’ to stem immigration’

    ‘Britons fear immigration as a threat to national life more than any other European country, new research has revealed.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353362/Were-overrun-Brits-fear-immigrants-European-nation-poll-reveals.html

    • Enrique

      –‘Britons fear immigration as a threat to national life more than any other European country, new research has revealed.’

      Yes, right, Klay, and you are one of these embattled Brits, right? It is pretty normal that most immigrants are pretty conservative and want to adapt to their new home. However, to try to be more nationalistic than the locals is rare. I stopped a long time trying to be something what people expected me to be. Accepting oneself is one of the greatest matters you can do for yourself. It is a powerful gesture.

  28. William O'Gorman

    Can any True Finn supporter answer Justicedemons post?

    Just out of interest, what is the policy of Perussuomalaiset on national incomes policy settlements, science and technology, cultural exports, climate change, GM crops, energy supplies, public broadcasting, the national cultural heritage, environmental conservation zones, urban planning, reform of public administration, dimensioning of regional health care provision, or intellectual property?

    You don’t know.

    Neither do they.

    So what makes you think they are fit to govern?

    Or at least try becuase this is a perfectly good example of how this party is just looking for votes and at the end of the day not thinking about the real best interest of the country and the Finns in it. Popularistic politics is only good for the policticians.

  29. Tiwaz

    Enrique, I see you are afraid of answering my criticism (keeping them “waiting for moderation” indefinitely in hopes of avoiding truth biting you in the ass?)

    -“I know you will never tell your real reasons behind your hatred towards a certain religious group. Coming from a Brazilian I think it is even stranger. But the response is quite revealing about your way of thinking: “Now to have globalization we need to let Muslims do whatever they want.” That sounds like Tiwaz.”

    Perhaps being Brazilian Tony has seen what divided society causes. And multiculturalism is all about divided society. Which in turn brings with it instability, crime and every kind of social problem known to man.

    -”
    Do you reall think that Muslims “do whatever they want” taking into account that first we exploit them by placing corrupt regimes, destroy their countries and make sure the bashing continues in Europe? Really, Tony, you should think a bit what you are saying.”

    Which corrupt leaders Finland for example has placed in muslim countries? Most of them manage to get to their position all by themselves.

    -”
    By disappointment I meant that the party will not be able to come close to your wishes. Mark my words, it will implode pretty fast. Why? Because there is nothing essential holding together it except for hot air.”

    As long as it’s success forces rest of parties to look in immigration mirror and admitting failure of multiculturalism, then it’s purpose is well fulfilled.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique, I see you are afraid of answering my criticism (keeping them “waiting for moderation” indefinitely in hopes of avoiding truth CENSORED?)

      Yes, Tiwaz, I am SO afraid. You rage too much and your use of foul language is out of line.

    • Enrique

      –As long as it’s success forces rest of parties to look in immigration mirror and admitting failure of multiculturalism, then it’s purpose is well fulfilled.

      Yes, everyone is afraid of the True Finns like I am afraid of your questions. I suspect they will get 10-15 MPs which is a disappointment from the goal of 20. The question begs for an answer: What IS the stand of the True Finns on other hot issues facing Finland: education, unemployment, the environment, global warming (oops! I guess they stole that idea from some union member) etc.

  30. Tiwaz

    -“Yes, Tiwaz, I am SO afraid. You rage too much and your use of foul language is out of line.”

    You clearly are afraid. You have NEVER answered any criticism towards multiculturalism, you just repeat your lies and pretend that holes in multicultural agenda do not exist.

    And then try to pin the failures of multiculturalism on Finns being racist.

    -“Yes, everyone is afraid of the True Finns like I am afraid of your questions.”

    They are. Big parties noticed that their ignorant and idiotic immigration policy has gathered the dislike of Finns. Finns are sick and tired of paying excessive support funds of immigrants, only receiving bitching and whining in return, as well as excessive crimerates of immigrant groups.

    Most immigrants are decent folk, indeed, but failure of politicians to respond to those who are not, and letting racist attitudes of folks like you (claiming that every failure of immigrants is result of racism, claim which in most cases does not hold water) keep bashing the Finns with impunity.

    -“I suspect they will get 10-15 MPs which is a disappointment from the goal of 20. The question begs for an answer: What IS the stand of the True Finns on other hot issues facing Finland: education, unemployment, the environment, global warming (oops! I guess they stole that idea from some union member) etc.”

    And nobody else has stolen anything… Kokoomus reps have been found stealing stuff as well.

    Regarding rest of political agenda of PS party, mostly it is pure crap. But as said, their purpose is to wake up rest of the parties. It is time to open eyes and admit that multicultural approach is failure and should be undone ASAP.

    Merkel has admitted multikulti is a failure, Cameron has admitted it is a failure. French have not said that in public, but their actions speak louder than words.

    All countries where multiculturalism is attempted are failing. And some have had balls to say it out loud. Finland has golden opportunity to jump ahead of the curve, we have not yet permitted multiculturalism to start rotting our society, we must be proactive and dump the idea to same trashcan where communism is now.

    And for that, we should not look at examples of failed multicultural attempts but forge our own way bravely. But this requires waking up the politicians to reality, and that is where PS party is needed.

    • Enrique

      –All countries where multiculturalism is attempted are failing. And some have had balls to say it out loud. Finland has golden opportunity to jump ahead of the curve, we have not yet permitted multiculturalism to start rotting our society, we must be proactive and dump the idea to same trashcan where communism is now.

      So, what then? Do you have a better plan?

  31. Tiwaz

    -“So, what then? Do you have a better plan?”

    Yep, “When in Rome….”

    Has worked through centuries. No drawbacks. Immigrants adjust and integrate to dominant native society until they become indistinguishable from them, leaving society undivided.

    And even if there was no better plan, choosing to go along with failed one is not a solution.

    • Enrique

      –‘A New York television executive has been convicted of stabbing his wife to death and beheading her.’

      I am certain if integration, or adaption, which I like to use, were that easy we would not have any problems. Could you take a young woman and man from another country and how you would “integrate” them into Finnish society and their children as well. How do they become “indistinguishable?”

  32. Tiwaz

    Have you paid attention to news Enrique? Tampere once again experienced joys of multiculturalism in form of shooting incident where two people of foreign origin (Irani and Iraqi respectively) were involved.

    Being preceded by violent fight between them and their comrades (in which brother of shooter was stabbed) earlier on.

    This is what multiculturalism has to offer. I want no part of it in my home, we have domestic issues enough without importing them from abroad.

    • Enrique

      –Have you paid attention to news Enrique? Tampere once again experienced joys of multiculturalism in form of shooting incident where two people of foreign origin (Irani and Iraqi respectively) were involved.

      Criminal activity is always condemned. The next time we have a tragic event at a school by a deranged person should I/we start to blame all Finns. Think what you say. The world is not flat socially.

  33. Tony Garcia

    “I am certain if integration, or adaption, which I like to use, were that easy we would not have any problems.”

    You are again dead right.That’s why it’s not about policies but who are coming. How much problem have the Argentinean community caused in UK, France, Sweden or Finland?

  34. JusticeDemon

    It’s amusing to see these fascist thickheads arguing for selective immigration policies based on individual incidents of criminal behaviour by a minority of immigrants. Do they have some way of telling which specific immigrants will commit criminal offences years later? Of course not. It’s all racism.

    Did we hear the likes of Tiwaz or Tony the TobyJug trying to withdraw from the Nordic travel zone or badmouthing Danish citizens in general when Steen Christensen gunned down two Finnish police officers in a downtown Helsinki street in 1997? Of course not! This was only ONE Dane, and not representative of all Danish citizens. If the perpetrator had been Albanian, on the other hand…

    Don’t be fooled by these fascists! They have an agenda.

  35. JusticeDemon

    lol@Tony the TobyJug

    Never let crass ignorance and prejudice stop you from speaking your mind, eh Toby?

    We are still waiting for you to tell us which of YOUR human rights are unnecessary. We are still waiting for you to quote a source that is not from a neofascist website, a toilet paper tabloid or the American Taliban. We are still waiting for you to show us that you are anything other than a bigoted Brazilian rich kid with no experience of real life.

  36. Klay_Immigrant

    Tony, I think Cameron was talking directly to Enrique in this paragraph from the multiculturalism speech:-

    ‘We have even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run counter to our values. So when a white person holds objectionable views – racism, for example – we rightly condemn them. But when equally unacceptable views or practices have come from someone who isn’t white, we’ve been too cautious, frankly even fearful, to stand up to them.’

    • Enrique

      –‘We have even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run counter to our values. So when a white person holds objectionable views – racism, for example – we rightly condemn them. But when equally unacceptable views or practices have come from someone who isn’t white, we’ve been too cautious, frankly even fearful, to stand up to them.’

      Any solutions? Just whining.

    • Enrique

      – Assimilation.

      Could you give us a peek into how you would do this. Are you stating that people cannot learn their languages in school? What about in countries like Spain? What about the Basques and Catalonians? Are you going to force them (again) to speak Spanish. I want to see how you would embark on this project. I am all eyes.

  37. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Are you stating that people cannot learn their languages in school? What about in countries like Spain? What about the Basques and Catalonians? Are you going to force them (again) to speak Spanish.’

    Have you lost your mind Enrique? You are being more ridiculous by the day. Comparing Basques and Catalonians to relatively recent immigrants is rather insulting to them. Is there a region in Finland called Somalia or Iraq where it’s native inhabitants have lived and spoken their language for centuries? Basques and Catalonians shaped their own region.

    It’s simple if people are the indigenous people of their own land then they have the right to continue their culture, customs and language. Why? Because if that is gone then there is nowhere else to find it where they are the majority. So if the Madrid government wanted to assimilate them into mainstream Spanish society I would be the first to object. The same applies to the Sami people. Whereas immigrants transporting their culture, religion, and language to another country is something I totally disagree with, a process Basques, Sami or Catalonians didn’t do. You see the difference Enrique?

    • Enrique

      –indigenous people

      Are these the locals that walk about half naked? What a funny name. So exclusive.

      By creating a place that is insular and where there is little tolerance for other cultures, you are going to create a social Frankenstein. You cannot eat and keep you cake at the same time. Sounds familiar? This is the argument of the neocons and far right: we only mean that we will be tolerant to ourselves but hate others. No can do uncless you like pipedreams. Breed contempt, hatred and suspicion and it will spread like cancer to other groups.

    • Enrique

      –So if the Madrid government wanted to assimilate them into mainstream Spanish society I would be the first to object.

      Why would you object? But your objection shows what the far right is clamoring: separate rights for separate people.

  38. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘ Now, I suggest you go to Catalonia and tell them that you would not have objected to them being assimilated into Spain.’

    Enrique read what I wrote again. I said I would OBJECT to assimilation of Basques and Catalonians into mainstream Spanish society and I gave the reasons why.

    -‘That was attempted in during Francisco Franco’s regime, the last fascist dictator after Nazi Germany was defeated.’

    Yes I know that very well. My grandfather fought against Franco for the Republicans in the Spanish civil war in the 1930’s. He suffered badly afterwards as the Republicans lost losing his business and livelihood as punishment resulting in my mother and her siblings having to eat in soup kitchens for a while.

  39. JusticeDemon

    The modern Finns are not indigenous to Finland.

    There is a tendency among the uneducated to use ‘indigenous’ to mean of sufficiently remote immigrant ancestry to be indistinguishable from the majority or able to present an adequate semblance thereof. By this yardstick, most supporters of the BNP consider that the Duke of Edinburgh is of indigenous stock, and of course the BNP leader’s great grandfather was a traveller of probable Roma origin.

    Now as a scientist, how do you use indigenous, Klay?

  40. Tiwaz

    -“Criminal activity is always condemned. The next time we have a tragic event at a school by a deranged person should I/we start to blame all Finns. Think what you say. The world is not flat socially.”

    You should blame Finnish police for too lenient weapons policy indeed.

    However, you still fail to notice the actual issue. Immigrant crimerates are DISPROPORTIONALLY HIGH.

    I once more drag the ugly truth of rapists into the light. Immigrant/foreign origin rapists are responsible for far higher percentage of rapes than their portion of population would “permit”.

    This is clear and obvious issue with immigrant population which stems from their refusal to adjust to Finnish society and it’s norms.

    You spoke of having and eating a cake. You can’t have society which is stable and functional while it is divided by cultures which have conflicting principles and values!

    Assuming that everyone can live according to their cultural norms and still have society work is lunacy.

    By the way, Finns are indigenous population of Finland. Studies have shown that Sami population has NOT populated Finland when proto-Finns arrived. Sami may have been indigenous population of Lapp, but they were not in Finland prior to Finns.

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