Finland and our Trayvon Martins

by , under Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

The unprovoked killing of Trayvon Martin, 17, in the state of Florida in the United States has caused widespread national outrage especially among black USAmericans. How did we react in Finland when our own Trayvon Martins appeared after a killing spree took place involving three Muslims within about three weeks? On top of this we had a former councilman of a major Finnish party, the Perussuomalaiset (PS), saying publicly that he’d give one of the killers a medal. 

The killing of Trayvon Martin was, like the deaths that occurred in Finland in late-January and early February, horrifying: The black Florida adolescent was visiting a friend of his father wearing a gray hoodie and with a pack of Skittles and a can of iced tea. Following him from behind was  George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old member of the local Neighborhood Watch, who thought the teen looked “suspicious.” The man shot and killed Martin on the spot with legal impunity protected in part by Florida’s expansive definition of self-defense.

Apart from a demonstration on February 25 in the cities of  Oulu and Helsinki, only silence followed as the police were quick to rule out hate crimes.  One gets the impression that ruling out the latter by the police appears to be their first and foremost aim.

But what can we expect if immigrants and visible minorities don’t have a say about their plight in this country? As long as the majority of the Finnish police are white Finns and as long as we have a large anti-immigration party in parliament like the PS, our silence will be encouraged and matters will continue as before.

Even so, our community must do more to voice its opinions and outrage at what happened in Oulu and Leppävaara.  Racism and social exclusion shouldn’t be left off the hook as easily as now.

Until we do, Finland will unfortunately see more Trayvon Martins in the future with the blessing of our shameful silence.

But there is good news. Many of us have been moved by these tragic events and the spread of racism in our society. Migrant Tales is one example but there are many others like that of Miriam Attias, who has written two moving blog entries on Uusi Suomi and gathered up to 730 signatures for a petition asking for more debate in society about racism.

To sign the petition click here and scroll to Julkilausuma hiljaisuuden jälkeen: Riittää jo rasismi ja “suvaitsevaisuus” – tarvitsemme dialogia!

  1. eihannu

    Why you are lying again?
    This is internet time not newspapers time so anyone can check facts.

    Unprovoked killing when member of neighbourhood watch had clear injuries of assault and is recorded by 911 yelling help when that 6´2 football player “teen” attacked him?

    Killing spree? I remember two killings what had no connection whatever, mind to elaborate? That idiot who jumped from balcony wasnt killed.
    One case was tradional finnish stabbing in house after fight, probably drunk and other case was guy with really violent past who should have been in jail who went berserk.

    And nothing in any cases did point that there was any racial motivation to kill, not even in USA case where shooter was multiracial hispanic btw.

    • Migrant Tales

      eihannu, it’s all a question of perspective and how you see things. They are related and happened in a time span of about three weeks.

      A white Finn who has little respect for immigrants may say what you say but others will disagree.

      “The idiot jumped” from a balcony? Is that what you call him?

      Look at it this way: July 22 was a bad day for anti-immigration far-right/right-wing populist parties in the Nordic region. Their world changed because of Anders Breivik who took their message too seriously.

      In Finland, it changed over the weekend of Feb. 18-19. We were never the same after that weekend and anti-immigration groups get a stinging blow like they did when Breivik became a household name.

      As I mentione, we crossed another important watershed on the weekend of Feb. 18-19 following two deaths on Feb 17 and Jan 31, when two Somalis die. All three were Muslims and to top it off we have a PS councilman, Tommi Rautio, who states on Facebook that he’d give one of the killers a medal. Now, put all this together and what do you get? All three were Muslims, two died in Oulu and one in Leppävaara.

  2. Hazzan

    ”On top of this we had a former councilman of a major Finnish party, the Perussuomalaiset (PS), saying publicly that he’d give one of the killers a medal. ”

    On top of that we had EYEOPENOR threatening to kill Soini.

  3. Hazzan

    BlandaUpp

    Njet, and neither should.

    http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/107527-nama-luvut-julki-ensi-kertaa-ulkomaalaisten-rikokset-suomessa

    ”Rangaistujen ulkomaalaisten (31 700) joukossa oli 143:n eri valtion kansalaisia, suurimpana lukuna 8 200 Venäjän tai entisen Neuvostoliiton kansalaista. Seuraavat kansalaisuudet olivat Viro (5892), Ruotsi (2079), Turkki (1044), Somalia (939), Romania (898) ja UIkomaa tuntematon (865).”

    8 200 Venäjän tai entisen Neuvostoliiton kansalaista + Viro (5892) / 31 700 (total crime with foreign background) = 44%. You are 46 percent off target provided that none of the black with either Russian or Estonian citizenship committed a crime.

  4. BlandaUpp

    Hazzan

    Using your own statistics, Black immigrants do the least amount of crime of any immigrant group here so why is there a need from people like you in the PS to be racist against black people specifically?

    You are placing Swedes, Romanians and Turks as “Black” Africans in your 46% statistic where Swedes perpetrate more than twice as many crimes as Somalis btw.

    Are you aware that the Kenyans, Nigerians, Ethiopians and Ghanaian immigrants (note: not refugees but immigrants) in Finland are on average more educated and have less unemployment here than white, Americans, Norwegians, Swedes, British, Italians, Poles, Russians, Lithuanians and Bulgarian immigrants?

    Finnish 5183058 8.7% unemployment
    Russia 26909 27,8% unemployment
    Ukraine 1798 17.7% unemployment
    Lithuania 615 12.5% unemployment
    Bulgaria 618 12.2% unemployment
    Italy 1432 11.5% unemployment
    Poland 1888 11% unemployment
    Norway 695 10.8% unemployment
    Britain 3213 10.1% unemployment
    Nigeria 1020 10% unemployment
    Japan 905 9.6% unemployment
    Bangladesh 840 9.5% unemployment
    Ethiopia 651 8.2% unemployment
    Ghana 700 8% unemployment
    India 2736 7.2% unemployment
    China 4620 8.5% unemployment
    Kenya 640 4% unemployment

    Then we have newcomer REFUGEES who in any society take at least a generation to adapt to their new country.

    Myanmar 1043 74,7% unemployment
    Sudan 1083 50,9% unemployment
    Afganistan 2189 61,0% unemployment
    Irak 3238 60,9% unemployment
    Somalia 4919 55,2% unemployment
    Source: http://www.stat.fi/til/tyokay/2008/01/tyokay_2008_01_2010-04-20_tau_001_fi.html

    • Migrant Tales

      BlandaUpp, I think Hazzan went back to Scripta to read the diatribe on that hatesite.

  5. BlandaUpp

    Hazzan

    If Somalis did 939 crimes out of a total of 31700 crimes perpetrated by foreigners in Helsinki then Somalis perpetrate a SHOCKING 2.9% of crime perpetrated by foreigners in Helsinki!

    I even have it laid out for your small mind to see http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=What+percentage+of+31700+is+939

    So if the total amount of crimes perpetrated by foreigners is 8% of the Helsinki total then Somalis perpetrated 0.36% of total crime in Helsinki. SHOCKING!!!

    Where’s the outrage about the other 99.7% of crimes not done but Somalis?

    Why have Somalis become the scapegoat in the PS anti-immigration witch hunt?

    My point still stands that over 90% of “immigrant” crimes were perpetrated by white foreigners (using the American definition of a white person) MAINLY from Russia and Estonia. Somalis are VASTLY UNDERREPRESENTED in the statistics you provided.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Why have Somalis become the scapegoat in the PS anti-immigration witch hunt?

      Because they are cowards and because they search for visible targets.

  6. D4R

    Hazzan: ”On top of this we had a former councilman of a major Finnish party, the Perussuomalaiset (PS), saying publicly that he’d give one of the killers a medal. ”

    On top of that we had EYEOPENOR threatening to kill Soini.

    You can’t ompare the two statements are you serious? One is in power Soini and eyeopener everyday people, so how can you even compare the two of them? you’re one stupid individual seriously, it’s embarrassing to even engage a discussion with you, it’s better you go somewhere else to play around. Bytheway how old are you?

  7. D4R

    Blandaupp: Why have Somalis become the scapegoat in the PS anti-immigration witch hunt?

    Good question and i dont think Hazzan got an answer to that, it’s obviouse that he is a Hommaforum racist, he comes here with a twisted stattistics his own way interpretated and tries to make them as they were true.. The reason why Somalis are targeted by P.S and other Hommaforum racists is because they have different religion and they are BLACK.

  8. D4R

    Hazzan, yeah go back to your racist Hommaforum scripta to search more of a twisted fake lies about immigrants and come back, we’re more than happy to slapp some truth at your racist face.

  9. Hazzan

    BlandaUpp

    You are talking about black and white, I just said your statement regarding Estonians and Russians was ”puppua”, or false.

  10. Hazzan

    BlandaUpp

    ”Using your own statistics, Black immigrants do the least amount of crime of any immigrant group here so why is there a need from people like you in the PS to be racist against black people specifically?”

    100% false when it comes to me, perhaps 100% false when it comes to PS as well. At least false until proven differently.

  11. Hazzan

    BlandaUpp

    ”Are you aware that the Kenyans, Nigerians, Ethiopians and Ghanaian immigrants (note: not refugees but immigrants) in Finland are on average more educated and have less unemployment here than white, Americans, Norwegians, Swedes, British, Italians, Poles, Russians, Lithuanians and Bulgarian immigrants?”

    If this statement is true, then we should try to get more immigrants from Kenya, Nigeria, Ethiopia and Ghana with similar status. Shouldn’t we?

  12. Hazzan

    ”You are placing Swedes, Romanians and Turks as “Black” Africans in your 46% statistic where Swedes perpetrate more than twice as many crimes as Somalis btw”

    Place Jesus in a jar. I said that your 90% was false. I should have said COMPLETE NONSENSE perhaps you would have understood then.

  13. Hazzan

    ”Are you aware that the Kenyans, Nigerians, Ethiopians and Ghanaian immigrants (note: not refugees but immigrants) in Finland are on average more educated…..”

    where did you get the educational data?

  14. BlandaUpp

    Hazzan

    If this statement is true, then we should try to get more immigrants from Kenya, Nigeria, Ethiopia and Ghana with similar status. Shouldn’t we?

    I will quote Mr Tessieri’s research on that:

    “The main reason why foreigners moved to Finland in 2010 was for family reasons (31%), study (25%) and work (17%). Asylum seekers accounted for only 10%.”

    “What does a mere 17% (3,030 people) of foreigners who got work permits last year on the grounds of employment and self-employment tell us?

    For one, it reveals that too few skilled people move on their own will to Finland for work. It tells us as well another disturbing fact: We are far behind other countries in attracting skilled labor as our ever-growing army of pensioners swells this decade and the next.”

    “Why would a skilled immigrant move with his or her family to Finland if there are easier and friendlier countries in Europe? Why would they move to a country where a right-wing populist anti-immigration party, the PS, gained 19.1% of the votes in April from 4.05% in 2007?”

  15. Yossie

    Blanda

    It is no suprise Mr Tessieri finds racism to be the cause for low number of skilled labor immigrants. After all, he is anti-PS.

    I have always thought high taxation, horrible climate and hard/small language to be the main causes.

    • Migrant Tales

      Yossie, if you are fair anti-immigration sentiment is an important factor. Researcher J.W. Berry, which I cited in a blog entry, states four important conditions for cultural diversity to grow: (1) There needs to be a general support for cultural diversity as a valuable resource for a society;(2) there should be overall low levels of prejudice in the population; (3) there should be generally positive mutual attitudes among the various ethnocultural groups that constitute the society; and (4) there needs to be a degree of attachment to the larger national society.

      What do you think? Where do we need to do more work? The idea that hordes of foreigners are waiting to rush to Finland has a lot to do with our history but much on ethnocentrism.

      So, don’t cry to the politicians why we have to postpone our retirement and why Finland is impoverishing itself economically and socially. The reason is simple: immigration and inclusion.

    • Migrant Tales

      Yossie, I am anti-PS. I personally believe they are a menace to our society and especially to immigrants, minorities and Finns with international backgrounds. Do I respect the election result of April 2011? I most certainly do.

  16. Yossie

    Enrique

    It is factor yes but… If we take a skilled specialist who knows his work and will be employed to a highly paid job. Will that person support paying higher taxes so we can have open borders for those that will be unemployed? Ultimately making him pay for harmful immigration.

    Why would cultural diversity needs to grow? Some people coming here might actually come here for the reason that Finland is not such a “culturally diverse”.

    “(1) There needs to be a general support for cultural diversity as a valuable resource for a society”

    Diversity “enrich” us right? Never figured out how, when it makes understanding other people harder, making all kinds of programs and special care needed to make society and work places work at normal level.

    “(2) there should be overall low levels of prejudice in the population”

    you are yourself doing quite the job for this: All the crimes against immigrants can be labeled racist -> Finland have lots of racists -> immigrants think all bad things happening to them all because finns are racists.

    “(3) there should be generally positive mutual attitudes among the various ethnocultural groups that constitute the society;”

    I have hard time having positive attitudes for certain people when they come from countries that have fucked themselves up or practice less than admirable cultural practices.

    • Migrant Tales

      Yossie, let’s take a look at your counterarguments to Barry’s. Concerning you question why cultural diversity needs to grow, the answer is simple: globalization, for one. People move a lot these days.

      “(1) There needs to be a general support for cultural diversity as a valuable resource for a society”

      Diversity “enrich” us right? Never figured out how, when it makes understanding other people harder, making all kinds of programs and special care needed to make society and work places work at normal level.

      ET: When you use the term “enrich” in such a way you show your subjective anti-immigration colors. Look at countries like the US. Canada, Brazil, Australia, Argentina, Sweden, England and many others. Immigration brings economic prosperity because it is innovation and new ideas. Since humans aren’t perfect, you cannot expect that immigrants in groups will function in such a way. Not even our society is perfect and there are a lot of problems. Maybe the question is how we resolve these issue together.

      “(2) there should be overall low levels of prejudice in the population”

      you are yourself doing quite the job for this: All the crimes against immigrants can be labeled racist -> Finland have lots of racists -> immigrants think all bad things happening to them all because finns are racists.

      ET: Did I say that ALL crimes are racist? We should stand up to all types of violence. Even so, I do think that the police and society in general plays down racism and the violence that springs from it.

      “(3) there should be generally positive mutual attitudes among the various ethnocultural groups that constitute the society;”

      I have hard time having positive attitudes for certain people when they come from countries that have fucked themselves up or practice less than admirable cultural practices.

      ET: How do you function with your own members? There is a positive disposition and, most importantly, the benefit of the doubt is given. For some immigrant groups the message they receive is hostility and suspicion. Not much bridge-building here.

  17. BlandaUpp

    Yossie

    “It is factor yes but… If we take a skilled specialist who knows his work and will be employed to a highly paid job. Will that person support paying higher taxes so we can have open borders for those that will be unemployed? Ultimately making him pay for harmful immigration.

    Why would cultural diversity needs to grow? Some people coming here might actually come here for the reason that Finland is not such a “culturally diverse”.”

    Define “harmful immigration” and where do our “harmful” immigrants come from? Considering the facts and statistics quoted in this thread, are they White people or are they the Black Africans that the PS like to target.

    You’re throwing out strawman arguments like “paying higher taxes so we can have open borders for those that will be unemployed”. How many unemployed from all over the EU have flooded into Finland since we joined the EU and opened our borders? Are you really that naive to think that it’s easy to move to Finland and get unemployment money?

    “I have hard time having positive attitudes for certain people when they come from countries that have fucked themselves up or practice less than admirable cultural practices.”

    WOW! You must really hate Jewish people then. Why so bigoted?

  18. Yossie

    Enrique

    “Look at countries like the US. Canada, Brazil, Australia, Argentina, Sweden, England and many others. Immigration brings economic prosperity because it is innovation and new ideas.”

    You mean centuries ago when world was much different and manual labor was highly needed?

    At least in Canada it doesnt seem to be so straight foward anymore:
    http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/15/recent-immigrants-a-huge-burden-on-taxpayers

    “Since humans aren’t perfect, you cannot expect that immigrants in groups will function in such a way. Not even our society is perfect and there are a lot of problems. Maybe the question is how we resolve these issue together. ”

    Bring in people! Bring in the problems they cause! Think about solutions later…

    “Did I say that ALL crimes are racist?”

    It sure looks like it when you make a post about every major crime that immigrants are targeted.

    “Even so, I do think that the police and society in general plays down racism”

    Coming from a person who thinks having a blond, blue eyed girl in a nordic date site’s add is racism… I´m not suprised you might think so.

    “ET: How do you function with your own members? There is a positive disposition and, most importantly, the benefit of the doubt is given. For some immigrant groups the message they receive is hostility and suspicion. Not much bridge-building here.”

    I do have positive attitude towards some immigrant groups, other not since the countries they come from, countries where they are majority, are such a horrible places to live. Is it no wonder there is suspicion towards them? It is called reputation and wanted it or not, it will affect the whole group.

  19. Mark

    Yossie

    It is called reputation and wanted it or not, it will affect the whole group.

    Yes, because to see it any other way would require some moral imagination, would it, Yossie!

    Mark rolls his eyes….

  20. D4R

    Yossie: I have hard time having positive attitudes for certain people when they come from countries that have fucked themselves up or practice less than admirable cultural practices.

    Look im from Somalia, i kno wich people you refer to this, listen w don’t need your respect, if you don’t respect we don’t respect you then, you can continue being a racist but becareful what you seed because you may receive it back.

  21. Hazzan

    BlandaUpp

    thank you for the statistics. They exclude also the black and white labour market racial discrimination since Ghana, Kenya and Ethiopian people are employed better than Finns and other immigrants.

    ”Then we have newcomer REFUGEES who in any society take at least a generation to adapt to their new country.” I suppose you mean their entry to the labour market. Do you think Denmark and Norway agree with this? Do you think the US agrees?

    Where’s the outrage about the other 99.7% of crimes not done but Somalis? Don’t know, you tell us where it comes from.

    Why have Somalis become the scapegoat in the PS anti-immigration witch hunt?

    May be the fact that during years 1997-2006 Somalis committed 3 times more crimes than Finns. May be because they are the best on hate-crimes of all people in Finland. May be because they are so highly unemployed? May be because they have the biggest families that the Finnish taxpayer generally has to pay for? Why don’t you ask PS if you need the answer.

  22. Hazzan

    BlandaUpp

    I wonder sometimes how you reason Blandupp.

    ”My point still stands that over 90% of “immigrant” crimes were perpetrated by white foreigners (using the American definition of a white person) MAINLY from Russia and Estonia.”

    1. ”Rangaistujen ulkomaalaisten (31 700) joukossa oli 143:n eri valtion kansalaisia, suurimpana lukuna 8 200 Venäjän tai entisen Neuvostoliiton kansalaista. Seuraavat kansalaisuudet olivat Viro (5892), according you:

    8 200+5892=14092/31700= 90% but my calculator say 44%. Use the link you provided, it works if you use correct numbers.

    2. Estonia, other population 0,7% (8,973), Russia, they also have black people. So this might alienate you further from the thruth.

  23. Hazzan

    BlandaUpp

    ”Nice statistics you have there. Do you know that 90% of those “immigrant” crimes were done by white foreigners from Russia and Estonia”

    Actually the original article was foreigners (including people visiting Finland) and you sweapt me in the stream. So if you see critically on who is the potential offender then it is of course the Somalis. Sweeds, Russians and Estonians travel to Finland on a regular basis (and sometimes commit crimes on the journeys) but I doubt Somalis travel that often between Finland and Somalia. May be I am wrong, who knows. May be you know better blandis?

  24. Yossie

    D4R

    “you can continue being a racist”

    It makes me a racist that I dont have a POSITIVE opinion of people who have failed to have a working goverment for two decades, commit in piracy in large scale, force women to be veiled and god knows what else? What does it takes for someone to be allowed to have negative opinion?

  25. eyeopener

    Hi Allan. Doesnot the law says: Innocent untill proven??

    You do as if you are police, prosecutor, judge, jury and execultioner in one person. You don’t even respect the legal structure. You sentence and verdict is already made.

    Where is the bar here?? Bursppppppp!!

  26. eyeopener

    Allan.

    You forgot the other one who was killed by a white Hispanic.Two police officials have resigned and in constitutional committee is examining the situation and the underlying law that allow people to use lethal violence in “self-defence”.

    Probably your argumentation will go that way.

    Please mind the sequences of events. According to the first information the 999 was called before the killing. He was told NOT to engage and wait.

    Let’s wait and see what will be the evidence findings.

    Also here you have already sentenced and verdicted!! We really don’t want people like you in Finland.

    Cool man!!

  27. D4R

    Yossie: D4R

    “you can continue being a racist”

    It makes me a racist that I dont have a POSITIVE opinion of people who have failed to have a working goverment for two decades, commit in piracy in large scale, force women to be veiled and god knows what else? What does it takes for someone to be allowed to have negative opinion?

    It makes you an ignorant person period. So are you going to judge me because of the civil war in my country wich i had nothing to do with? like i said before i came here when i was eight, we escaped the war, i wish my country was peace so that i don’t have to stand and tolerate your kind of bigoted racist everyay, their mockery and labels, dehumanizing on me and my people, but im never going to loose hope, i happened to be born in a country where there erupted a civil war when i was eight, your kinds who never had to struggle for their lives are constantly mocking me and belittle me of the position im at, what if you was me? how would you deal then? you don’t know what we’re going through, you don’t know what’s like to be us, to have to stand your mockery.

  28. D4R

    Hay guys i got an idea, maybe we should go to racist forums like Homma or scripta and confuse their discussion just like they’re doing to us here confusing the discussion, i think we would be blocked, Enrique why are we tolerating these guys?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hazzan, I know eyeopener and he is a man of his word and integrity. When I told you that he uses the same tactics as you do when speaking about immigrants, I meant it.

      You have no idea how harmful an urban tale, a stereotype or something that promotes suspicion of other people is. One of the reasons I dedicate much of my free time on this blog is because I am worried about the consequences of these things. We have seen terrible things happen in Europe in the past and if we don’t put a stop to it, the same horrible things will happen again. A recent example was the former Yugoslavia and we see distressing things in Hungary and elsewhere.

      If you think about it, including people and giving them an opportunity/benefit of the doubt like we give members of our own group, is a much cheaper solution than what you are doing. In other words, it will cost tax payers an arm and a leg to keep people excluded from society.

      You cannot keep a thing like racism, suspicion of other groups and hatred on a short leash. These things have a life of their own when you let them out of the cage. The bite back at their supposed or imagined masters.

  29. Sasu

    Hazzan ja kaltaisesi Ootko sä edes ymmärtänyt miten rasismi toimii yhteisön ja yksilö välillä.
    Toinen miksi sinä edes olet täälä. Sinä et tuo mitään uutta vaan kiellät kaiken, mikä on mustille joka päiväistä todellisuusta. Tuot ihan hyviä tilastoja ja sitten väität sen todistavan jotakin maahanmuuttajien rikollisuudesta.

    On niin onni että sinulla on Valkoinen etuoikeus koska jos joku värillinen olisi puhunut samaan tyyliin, ihmiset puhuisivat miten henkilön rotu/etninen ryhmän jäsenet ovat yliagressiivisia ja henkilö varmasti vihaa valkoisia, hänellä on varmasti jäsenkortti johonki jihadistiseen liikkeeheen. Henkilö olisi muuttunut yksilöstä kokonainen kansan rodun edustajaksi.

    Jotta tämä ei päättyisi liian loukkaavan tapaan, kysyn niin kuin olen parikertaa tehnyt, Mikä on sinun ratkaisu maahanmuutto ongelmaan jos olemme samaa mieltä siitä että maahanmuutto on ongelma, Sovitaan niin.

    Enrique why are we tolerating these guys? D4R

    Varmaan siksi, että emme olis yhtä pahoja kuin vasta puoli. King uskoi siihen.

  30. Yossie

    D4R

    “Hay guys i got an idea, maybe we should go to racist forums like Homma or scripta and confuse their discussion just like they’re doing to us here confusing the discussion, i think we would be blocked, Enrique why are we tolerating these guys?”

    By all means you should. You seem to be rather upset that there are people who dont agree with you. Do you just want people here you agree on whatever you say and then you can pat each others backs and tell how you totally agree.

    A bit from MT:
    “Dialogia on helppo käydä samanmielisten kesken, mutta kuinka paljon me kukin uskallamme haastaa itseämme myös yli oman hiekkalaatikon?”

    • Migrant Tales

      –“Dialogia on helppo käydä samanmielisten kesken, mutta kuinka paljon me kukin uskallamme haastaa itseämme myös yli oman hiekkalaatikon?”

      The big difference between us and Hommaforum is that we have a diversity of opinions. And think of it, is it possible to speak about anti-democratic things like social inequality and racism? Can we agree on it? No way.

      That is the big difference between Hommaforum and Scripta. They want to make racism “normal” without even understanding what it is let alone how it impacts society.

  31. D4R

    Yossie: By all means you should. You seem to be rather upset that there are people who dont agree with you. Do you just want people here you agree on whatever you say and then you can pat each others backs and tell how you totally agree.

    Why don’t you apply it to yourself too? the reason why you’re uppset and attacking us is, because we’re exposing you and your hommaforum gangsters how racist you guys are, and how difficult you make the lifes of the least men in Finland the immigrants. So if you don’t agree with us then, why’re you coming here attacing us instead of discussing with us properly about racism.

  32. D4R

    I must be more specific about in the part of agreeing with us, what i mean by that is, agreeing that there is racism in Finland, wich you Yossie don’t believe it happen.

  33. Yossie

    Enrique

    “The big difference between us and Hommaforum is that we have a diversity of opinions. And think of it, is it possible to speak about anti-democratic things like social inequality and racism? Can we agree on it? No way.

    That is the big difference between Hommaforum and Scripta. They want to make racism “normal” without even understanding what it is let alone how it impacts society.”

    You say you have diversity of opinions in here, yet I get the feeling there is certain types of opinions you want here. If you dont agree, you get called with all the offensive names and such, D4R demonstrates.

    Also I would urge you to try out making your case about anti-democratic things like social inequality and racism in homma. I´m quite sure they wont stop you making the post, do people agree with you, you´ll have to see.

    • Migrant Tales

      –You say you have diversity of opinions in here, yet I get the feeling there is certain types of opinions you want here.

      Look at Allan and others like yourself. It’s clear that we differ in opinions. This would never be possible on Hommoforum because they would lynch the visitor.

  34. Yossie

    D4R

    “Why don’t you apply it to yourself too?”

    I think I have. After all, I am here reading you points even if I dont agree with some of them.

    “So if you don’t agree with us then, why’re you coming here attacing us instead of discussing with us properly about racism.”

    So in order to discuss in here, I need to agree with you. But if I agree with you, what is there left to discuss? So a proper discussion is when there is no one to disagree with your points?

  35. D4R

    Yossie: You say you have diversity of opinions in here, yet I get the feeling there is certain types of opinions you want here. If you dont agree, you get called with all the offensive names and such, D4R demonstrates.

    Also I would urge you to try out making your case about anti-democratic things like social inequality and racism in homma. I´m quite sure they wont stop you making the post, do people agree with you, you´ll have to see.

    Why don’t you tell your Homma gang affiliates like example hazzan, to stop coming here with their twisted lies, just to make generalization about immigrants so to have a stigma and label in order for racist to oppress them? if your expecting fair play in here, then i suggest you start it from you guys.

  36. Allan

    No, the difference between Hommaforum and Migrant Tales is that while the other spreads lies and hatered and invents racism, the other one is a respectable website for political debate with sitting parliamentarians contributing. 😉

    • Migrant Tales

      –is a respectable website for political debate..

      It’s a good matter you haven’t lost your sense of humor.

  37. D4R

    Yossie: So in order to discuss in here, I need to agree with you. But if I agree with you, what is there left to discuss? So a proper discussion is when there is no one to disagree with your points?

    Yes you have to agree with me that there is racism in Finland. So in order for you to even participate and get a glance of what issues we’re discussing about in here you have to stop being in denial and open your eyes to the massege we got for you, otherwise it’s no use for you to lounce here day to day, month to month, year to year, do you understand where im coming from?

  38. D4R

    Allan: No, the difference between Hommaforum and Migrant Tales is that while the other spreads lies and hatered and invents racism, the other one is a respectable website for political debate with sitting parliamentarians contributing.

    Explain how?

  39. Yossie

    Enrique

    “This would never be possible on Hommoforum because they would lynch the visitor.”

    Could you explain this a bit more. What do you mean by “lynching”?

    • Migrant Tales

      Yossie, by “lynching” I mean he would be banished from there. He or she wouldn’t stand a chance.

      Contrarily, we have people here he have quite divergent views about this topic.

      In all my five years on Migrant Tales, only a handful have been banned from our blog. This happens when they are super disrespectful, threaten or spread violence. One of my hobbies is reffing basketball. I’ve done it for about 7 years and it has taught me a lot of things. I don’t have any problem giving a player a technical if he deserves it. Likewise, I don’t have a problem admitting if I made a mistake. Fair play is important. Even so, we can have that passion to win.

      One thing that is, in my opinion, his highly suspect in the ongoing debate is can we discuss anti-democratic measures for other people in our society? Can we enforce different laws for different groups? This is where I draw the line and which probably makes us very different in our views of the topic.

  40. Yossie

    D4R

    Sure is there is racism in Finland. Much like there is racism in any country for that matter. But I do not agree with you how much racism there is. To me it seems you seem to think everything in Finland is racistic. Best example is Enrique’s opinion of blue eyed, blond girl picture in nordic dating site is racism.

  41. Yossie

    Enrique

    “Yossie, by “lynching” I mean he would be banished from there. He or she wouldn’t stand a chance.”

    Well, I do think you might have a hard time since there is a lot of active bloggers there, so many would want to counter your argument. That would mean you would need to counter many person’s arguments. However, that is something I need to do in here too.

    I dont know if this is what you meant? Maybe still you should give it a try

  42. Allan

    No Enrique, you just don’t want to be exposed. You call “lynching” when people tell you the truth. You can not stand up for any of your opinions, because the fabrications would be exposed. And yes, you would be called bad names because of thet. In other words, “perse ei kestä merivettä”. As a matter of fact, if you went there and registered with your own name as a verified own name (you need to go through the admins), the moderators would kickban anyome going adhominem at you. Say like Jari Tervo would get 3 day ban for calling you a “mutakuono” as he reportedly did back in the day. If you come in as an anonymous someone, then you get the same deal as anyone else. You need to be able to stand up for your opinions with proof. Theres a few quite prominent “flowerhats” posting there, you would be surprised. They do not ban dissidents – so stop trying to invent truth but actually either prove me wrong or prove me right. Your call.

  43. Allan

    “Are you suggesting you would be banned if you posted something disagreeing with the major opinion of the blog?”

    Its not a “blog”, its a bulletin board. When you put the bait in the water, you expect fish. Maybe you get piranhas. Depends on the bait. Its all learning how to fish.

  44. Allan

    “I must be more specific about in the part of agreeing with us, what i mean by that is, agreeing that there is racism in Finland, wich you Yossie don’t believe it happen.”

    I agree there is racism in Finland, this blog for example is full of racist hate-speech directed against native Finns.

  45. Hazzan

    Sasu

    onko tämä totta? Vai etsää ymmärrä Lontoota?

    ”If this statement is true, then we should try to get more immigrants from Kenya, Nigeria, Ethiopia and Ghana with similar status. Shouldn’t we?” (muut paitsi nigerialaiset työllistyvät paremmin kuin suomalaiset)

    Ja sitten sinä

    ”Hazzan ja kaltaisesi Ootko sä edes ymmärtänyt miten rasismi toimii yhteisön ja yksilö välillä.
    Toinen miksi sinä edes olet täälä. Sinä et tuo mitään uutta vaan kiellät kaiken, mikä on mustille joka päiväistä todellisuusta. ”

    Onko se johtopäätös vedettävizzä että suomalainen yhteiskunta suosii, (eli harrastavat positiivista diskriminaatiota) maahanmuuttajia noista maista suomalaisilla työmarkkinoilla? Vai pitäisikö se sanoa että, sehän on selvää että juuri kenyalaiset, ethiopialaiset ja ghanalaiset työllistyvät paremmin kuin suomalaiset?Mun silmät eivät erota ethiopialaisen somalista, erottaaks sun?

  46. Allan

    OK, D4R sanotaanko että Suomessa on rasismia. Tässä esimerkki:

    Onko videolla rasismia? Jos skidit olisi samanvärisiä, niin olisiko videolla rasimia? Jos videolla olisi roolit toisinpäin, olisiko videolla rasimia? Jos on, ei niin miksi? ja lopyksi, jos video ei näkysi, olisiko rasimia? Ja loppukysymys, mikä on “todellinen ongelma” videolla?

    • Migrant Tales

      Nice try Allan, just because the kid is dark doesn’t make it a hate crime. I am now giving you a standard police response in light of the three deaths that took place in Oulu and Leppävaara. You assume that this may be but they could be kids messing around.

      The point? That all type of violence is unacceptable. But violence comes in many forms, Allan. Spreading hatred is violence too.

  47. Yossie

    Enrique

    “Nice try Allan, just because the kid is dark doesn’t make it a hate crime.”

    Of course it doesnt. However one should wonder what would had been the reaction in this blog if the roles in the video had been reversed? Would people blame racism and tell how immigrant kids face racism?

  48. D4R

    Yossie: Of course it doesnt. However one should wonder what would had been the reaction in this blog if the roles in the video had been reversed? Would people blame racism and tell how immigrant kids face racism?

    Your media already eacted and resperted to these little kids, it has nothing to do with their ethnicity, kids bully no matter what skin color or ethnicity they represent, also when i was in school, i get bullied by Finnish kids, this is nothing compared to what ive gone through, but i never started to hate all Finns or white people, just the people who bullied me. This blog is not about to report every incident that happens in life, it’s about giving a voice to immigrants, who’re not heard in mainstream media, if i go to Iltalehti chattin rooms or other Finnish media chatting rooms express myself i wil not be heard, i will be mocked, laughed at or they use racil slurs at me, ive experienced that many times in Suomi24 for instances. So i thank to this blog for giving us the voice to be heard, to express ourself, and share with other immigrants similar experiences we go through in Finland.

  49. Yossie

    D4R

    Wait wait wait… you actually go read suomi24 and iltasanomat forums, yet you feel “allergic” to homma? Obviously you have not read homma at all then. Suomi24 and iltasanomat is way worse than homma when it comes to insulting and racial slurs.

  50. Hazzan

    D4R

    ”So i thank to this blog for giving us the voice to be heard, to express ourself, and share with other immigrants similar experiences we go through in Finland.”

    ”t’s about giving a voice to immigrants”

    Your text is very different from other bloggers and I know there are a lot of immigrants who don’t share your views on any level.

    If you had to comment how the muslim massacred the Jews in Toulouse, what would you say? Enrique somehow missed this massacre.

  51. D4R

    Yossie: D4R

    Wait wait wait… you actually go read suomi24 and iltasanomat forums, yet you feel “allergic” to homma? Obviously you have not read homma at all then. Suomi24 and iltasanomat is way worse than homma when it comes to insulting and racial slurs.

    Doesnt matter wich chat room leads the racism, you already answer the point we were making all the time that, Homma is a racist, by this comment of yours confirms it. Thank you.
    I have to add that, we’re not saying ALL Finns are racist, no not at all, but there are racist ignorants who spread lies and myths about immigrants, and it hurts us because we’re being labeled wrongly. So Yossie are with with us to tackle this problem or are you going to fight us for trying to tackle racism?

  52. D4R

    Hazzan:If you had to comment how the muslim massacred the Jews in Toulouse, what would you say? Enrique somehow missed this massacre.

    What makes you think i’m muslim?

  53. Hazzan

    D4R

    ”If you had to comment how the muslim massacred the Jews in Toulouse, what would you say? Enrique somehow missed this massacre.”

    Do you need the question in another language?

    • Migrant Tales

      Hazzan, you crossed the line. Or are you trying to test us? On Hommaforum they’d tell you to chill out for a couple of weeks. But I do think your statement is outright malicious, racist and in bad taste.

  54. eyeopener

    Daer MT.

    Our person simply forget the comments in the French papers, that this massacre could have been as good as one from the NEONAZI soldiers that have been dismissed by the French Army from the Toulouse army base.

    He simply forgets the American soldier massacring Afghan citizens.

    He simply forgets or distorts the information sofar from the Trayvon case.

    He simply ignores that his statistics have a Finnish part also which is far more outragous, but he simply denies.

    He distorts statistics about unemployment without mentioning or even highlighting the different economies. The world is simple!!

    He simply forgets that Finnish women belong to the silent majority in violent crimes that are committed by husbands, friends or acquitances. His world is simple. Women asked for it!! Simple!!

    He simply forgets that Helsinki is not Finland. Simply because Finland ends at the northern highway aroubnd Helsinki. Simple as that!!

    Simple isn’t it?? Except for EXPLAIN!! Oeps where have I seen this word before??

    This person looks in the mirror everyday and tells himself: YOU ARE SO SIMPLE!!

  55. Farang

    D4R, you are one intererting person. You seriously say that for someone to discuss here, he has to agree with you on something? That quite arrogant attitude. I haven’t seen anyone else raising himself so close to god’s level than you.

    Why should we agree that there are racism (level you obviously define) in Finland, even if we neves see it and our immigrant friends never sees it? Just because you say so? If there are odd single racist act sometimes somewhere it doesn’t mean this country is racist. There are single racist persons in every country.

    I’ve travelled a lot and usually the locals (not all) try to hussle us “white tourists” either by lying or making us pay more than normal prise of the product. But that doesn’t happen in USA, Australia, Sweden, FINLAND, Germany, etc. How do you explain that?

    Challenge for you: Name one country which is less racist than Finland and present some data to back that up.

  56. eyeopener

    D4R.

    This person doesnot understand trade. Price is fixed in many countries and you don’t discuss.

    Simplicity. This person walks around in this world with Finland the inside out. Everything has to be what he can understand.

    That is simply very little.

    Simply switching issues as if they are related. Sooooooooo Simple!!

    I decide what should be done in this world. That’s his simple thinking. The new colonialism. Simple people never can get away from that.

    It is so simple..

    Boring……….. I get so tired…………simply because of this simplicity.

  57. Seppo

    “If there are odd single racist act sometimes somewhere it doesn’t mean this country is racist. There are single racist persons in every country.”

    Of course it is a simplification to say that a whole country is racist. This was maybe the case with South Africa in the 1980’s where racism was official policy. However, I believe that there can be relatively more racist persons in one country than another. Compare for example our neighbors, Russia and Sweden. There are relatively more racists in Russia than in Sweden. That can be explained by many factors but not by the number of immigrants – in both countries there are a lot of them.

    Another point is that even though Finland would not be especially racist but only “normally” racist, racism is still a problem that should be addressed. To think that racism cannot be diminished is exactly such cynicism and pessimism that this society does not need any more of.

  58. eyeopener

    So simple to distinguish between “racism” and “normal racism”. Probably a slip of mind of a simple person!!

    Get’s really simple, isn’t ?

  59. Göran

    eyeopener

    since you seem so superior to others, why don’t you answer why the Kenyans, Ethiopians, Ghanans and Nigerians get so much easier jobs in Finland than the Somalians and Sudanis? Should be a piece of cake for a guy like you.

    • Migrant Tales

      –since you seem so superior to others, why don’t you answer why the Kenyans, Ethiopians, Ghanans and Nigerians get so much easier jobs in Finland than the Somalians and Sudanis?

      Göran, maybe you have an answer. But remember, the answer has nothing to do with “group traits.” You could never empirically show or prove that groups act in a certain way because they are from that group. Certainly we have predicable behavior but it’s not the same thing. By predictable I mean knowing how we will interact socially. Those who are unpredicatble in our society are put in asylums.

      One matter the nationalities show that ethnicity is not the matter that determins achievement.

  60. D4R

    Farang: D4R, you are one intererting person. You seriously say that for someone to discuss here, he has to agree with you on something? That quite arrogant attitude. I haven’t seen anyone else raising himself so close to god’s level than you.

    Why should we agree that there are racism (level you obviously define) in Finland, even if we neves see it and our immigrant friends never sees it? Just because you say so? If there are odd single racist act sometimes somewhere it doesn’t mean this country is racist. There are single racist persons in every country.

    I’ve travelled a lot and usually the locals (not all) try to hussle us “white tourists” either by lying or making us pay more than normal prise of the product. But that doesn’t happen in USA, Australia, Sweden, FINLAND, Germany, etc. How do you explain that?

    Challenge for you: Name one country which is less racist than Finland and present some data to back that up.

    If you disagree that there is racism in Finland, then nothing ruther to discuss, because you’re in denial. Just because you never had to face racism in Finland mean to you there isn’t racism, how bright are you? well im an immigrant and you can ask me that yes there is racism in finland, why don’t ask dark skin toned immigrants if there is racism or not, rather than asking your white imigrant friends. Well if you don’t agree and are in denial that there is racism, what is your point of being here?? are you trying to disprove that there is racism in Finland? you’re going to have a hardtime of disproving something that really exists.

  61. D4R

    Seppo: Another point is that even though Finland would not be especially racist but only “normally” racist, racism is still a problem that should be addressed. To think that racism cannot be diminished is exactly such cynicism and pessimism that this society does not need any more of.

    Well said Seppo, also ill repeat myself, not whole Finland is racist, and not all Finns are racist, but some they happen to be a minority, but they seem to get a major voice and it effects severely on immigrants.

    • Migrant Tales

      –Well said Seppo, also ill repeat myself, not whole Finland is racist, and not all Finns are racist, but some they happen to be a minority, but they seem to get a major voice and it effects severely on immigrants.

      This is important to state SOME Finns as opposed to Finns. Then we’d commit the same mistake as the Halla-ahos of Finland, when they group ALL immigrants in one bag. Extemists like to use the term ALL because it gets them off. Even so, not even a child believes that ALL people, or 100%, are “bad.” Just like when I was a kid in Finland during the summers, white Finns warmed me that ALL Roma were thieves. How could it be possible? It’s mathematically impossible.

  62. Farang

    Yes, I can agree that there is some racism in Finland and yes, it is a problem that we need to get rid of. I just don’t agree that there would be so much racism that Finland could be called a racist country. D4R, are we now on a same page?

    One big problem is also the people who tend to see racism everywhere, even when there is none. Like “looking at someone in a wrong way” or “not looking at someone”. And is it true that someone considered a picture of blue eyed blonde racist?

    D4R, for your info, all my immigrant friends are dark skinned, not white as you assumed.

  63. D4R

    M.T : This is important to state SOME Finns as opposed to Finns. Then we’d commit the same mistake as the Halla-ahos of Finland, when they group ALL immigrants in one bag. Extemists like to use the term ALL because it gets them off. Even so, not even a child believes that ALL people, or 100%, are “bad.” Just like when I was a kid in Finland during the summers, white Finns warmed me that ALL Roma were thieves. How could it be possible? It’s mathematically impossible.

    Exactly

  64. D4R

    Farang: Yes, I can agree that there is some racism in Finland and yes, it is a problem that we need to get rid of. I just don’t agree that there would be so much racism that Finland could be called a racist country. D4R, are we now on a same page?

    One big problem is also the people who tend to see racism everywhere, even when there is none. Like “looking at someone in a wrong way” or “not looking at someone”. And is it true that someone considered a picture of blue eyed blonde racist?

    D4R, for your info, all my immigrant friends are dark skinned, not white as you assumed.

    Farang, i agree with you, Finland as a whole shouldnt be called a racist country, I don’t think we ever did that’s ubsurd to do so, but there is underlying hidden racism wich can be a threat to us and we are concerned about that. This blog is no us vs all Finns, as some thought so. Also you’e right, some people may see racism in everything and to me that’s wrong, but it’s fair in both parties that, they be honest and look at where the real problems at. The ones who see blod picture as racism is ubsurd too, racism wether it’s committed by a dark person or a white person is totally WRONG.

  65. Farang

    To be honest, the way Migrant Tales / Enrique present things here are slagging Finns and making us look more racist than we ever were. I’m not sure but I feel like he’s doing it intentionally, and that’s something I can’t stand. If we were all honest, the discussion would be much easier. Other one is Sasu, who seems to see racism everywhere, even eyes closed.

    • Migrant Tales

      –To be honest, the way Migrant Tales / Enrique present things here are slagging Finns and making us look more racist than we ever were.

      That depends from which perspective you are looking at the issue. Are you black or are you white?

  66. Mark

    Farang

    To be honest, the way Migrant Tales / Enrique present things here are slagging Finns and making us look more racist than we ever were.

    Well, if those Finns happen to be openly expressing racist views, then I’d say we are justified in criticising them, but that’s not the same as saying that other Finns share those views.

    You seem more concerned with Finland’s reputation than getting to the bottom of immigrant’s experiences of prejudice or even taking the issue seriously. It’s been basically denial after denial.

    Isn’t it funny that many of those who are saying exactly what you are saying, Farang, are also engaged in slagging off Muslim immigrants as being unfit to come to Finland. Do you see even a slight contradiction in this?

  67. Mark

    Farang

    I just don’t agree that there would be so much racism that Finland could be called a racist country.

    I’m glad you acknowledge this. I’ve said this several times on this blog, that asking if Finland is a racist country is absolutely the wrong question to ask, a huge red herring that will only obscure the real debate. The question is how do we properly respond to the racism that does exist.

    Measuring racism is always difficult; after all, people can harbour racist views and have almost no opportunity to act on them. However, this person’s silence in the face of other people’s openly expressed racism or racist acts go a very long way to keeping it going or maintaining the blanket denial, which in itself is incredibly destructive.

    Immigrants are here and they are here to stay. The only way forward is to support them as citizens and do as much as possible to empower them. This benefits everyone.

    Or we can have a situation where we starve the animal and then complains it is not fit for work!

  68. Sasu

    Teidän keskustelu siitä onko suomi rasistinen maa on harhaan johtava.
    Suurin osa aloittaa keskustelun sillä oletuksella että rasismi pelkää tekoa. Ehkä pieni muistutus rasismi on yhteiskunnallinen ilmiö eikä se tarvikse indivduallistiksia rasisteja mihinkään. Meidän huolen aihe ei saisi olla skinhead ja hommafoorumilaiset. Todellinen huolen aihe on rasismin rakenteelliset muodot jotka antavat värillisille vääränlaisen kuvan itsestä ja muista. Meidän kuuluisi keskittyä hiljaisiin hyväksyjiin. Oletteko unohtaneet että Rebecka Holm ei artikkelissaan puhunut äärirasisteista vaan enemmän hiljaisikta hyväksyjistä.

    Suomi on rasistinen maa siinä missä koko eurooppa on
    Nyt kerron miksi. Suomalainen yhteiskunta korostaa valkoisuuden normaaliutta ja värillisten joko eksoottista tai vaarallista asemaa. Massa media näyttää pitkäti maailmaa valkoisen miehen näkökulmasta. Koulumme kertoo yhä miten valkoinen mie keksi/rakensi kaiken. Kolonialismin osuutta euroopan rakentamiseksa vähätellään. Afrikkalaiset ja Aasialaiset eurooopan vaurauden rakensi. Minkäänlaista takaisin maksua ei vielä ole näkynyt.

    Värilliset kulttuurit on triviallisoitu

    Miten me poistumme tästä.
    Aloitetaan sillä että värilliset alkavat perustaamaan omia lehtiä ja ohjelmia jotka auttavat rakentamaan terveellitä minä kuvaa.
    Kun menemme monikulttuurisuus juhliin, alamme puhua millä tavalla niissä kulttuureja esitetään ja miten se eroaa eurooppalaisen kulttuurin esitystavasta.
    Ennakkoluuloja voidaan poistaa samalla tavoin kuin fobioitakin hoidetaan. Siis vieroittamalla
    Pitäkäämme mahdollisimman paljon ääntä niin meitä ei unohdeta.
    Värilliset: Ei ole mitään järkeä etsiä hyväksyntää tähän yhteiskuntaan. Sensijaan hyväksykäämme itsemme sellaisina kuin olemme.

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/note.php?note_id=10150258254803990

  69. Allan

    “That depends from which perspective you are looking at the issue. Are you black or are you white?”

    And this question is racial segragation, i.e. racism. Enrique is a racist. I never ask a person their color, as it does not matter, does it?

  70. Allan

    D4R – I am still saying “there is no racism in Finland” that you would need to complain about.

    Read this – this is racism and xenophobia:
    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2010/0721/Zimbabweans-flee-South-Africa-as-xenophobic-violence-flares

    Those people would, i don’t know would they laugh or would they cry if they read this and how you were whining someone not sitting next to you in a bus is “racism”. Have some reality check – you have no problems compared to those people. If I was you, I’d be happy living in Finland and not in South Africa, as a black immigrant.

  71. Yossie

    Sasu

    “Suomi on rasistinen maa siinä missä koko eurooppa on
    Nyt kerron miksi. Suomalainen yhteiskunta korostaa valkoisuuden normaaliutta ja värillisten joko eksoottista tai vaarallista asemaa. Massa media näyttää pitkäti maailmaa valkoisen miehen näkökulmasta. Koulumme kertoo yhä miten valkoinen mie keksi/rakensi kaiken. Kolonialismin osuutta euroopan rakentamiseksa vähätellään. Afrikkalaiset ja Aasialaiset eurooopan vaurauden rakensi. Minkäänlaista takaisin maksua ei vielä ole näkynyt.”

    Oikeesti… valitettavasti suomalainen yhteiskunta vaan on 95% valkoinen. Tälloin ei pitäisi olla yllätys että valkoisuus katsotaan “normaaliksi” tai että maailmaa katsotaan valkoisen miehen näkökulmasta, tai oikeammin sanottuna suomalaisesta näkökulmasta.

    Vai pitäisikö minun mennä Kiinaan ja valittaa että ihmiset katsovat maailmaa aasialaista näkökulmasta? Pitäsikö olla vihainen jos minua länsimaalaisena pidetään eksoottisena?

    Mitä tulee euroopan rakentamiseen niin itse ainakin syyllistyt valkoisten vähättelemiseen. Eiköhän valkoiset kuitenkin itse maansa suurimmaksi osaksi rakentanut. Ainakin suomen osalta on naurettavaa väittää että afrikkalaiset ja aasialaiset olisivat tämän maan rakentaneet.

    Ymmärtääkseni myös valkoiset miehet nyt vaan sattuivat tekemään suurimman osan teollisen aikakauden keksinnöistä. Vai onko sinulla jotain salattua tietoa asiasta jota suomen valtio pimittää?

  72. Mark

    I never ask a person their color, as it does not matter, does it?

    Matter to what? If they have been racially profiled? It matters to that. If they have been turned down for a job based on their skin colour and the racism of their employer. It matters to that. If they are assaulted in the street, it matters to that….

    Are you saying that racism doesn’t matter to you? Please correct me if I’m wrong!

  73. Mark

    Allan

    Have some reality check – you have no problems compared to those people.

    My mum always did that – telling us how much worse things were in Africa! It’s part of the European superiority mindset.

  74. Allan

    No it doesn’t matter because most probably they got turned down from the job because they lack the required skills. Stupidity does not depend on skin color. Except maybe in your case.

  75. Sasu

    Yossie
    Mitä väliä sillä oikeasti on että kuinka paljon suomessa on valkoisia.

    Intiassa tuhannet valkaisevat ihoa ollakseen eurooppalaisia ja siellä on ehkä joku pari sataa valkoista. Intiassa silti uskotaan että ollakseen hyvä sinun on oltava valkoinen. Minä puhun tavasta arvottaa ihmisiä heidän ihon värin mukaan en siitä, mikä lukumääräisesti on alueen normi.
    Kiinassa tuhannet silpovat “vinoja silmiä” ollakseen eurooppalaisia.

  76. Yossie

    Sasu

    “Mitä väliä sillä oikeasti on että kuinka paljon suomessa on valkoisia. ”

    Yleensäkin asioita tarkastellaan omista lähtökohdista, joten koska suomi on valtaosin valkoinen, katsellaan asioita valkoisista lähtökohdista.

    “Intiassa tuhannet valkaisevat ihoa”

    Ja suomessa tuhannet matkustavat ulkomaille makailemaan rannoille ruskettamaan ihoaan.

    “Minä puhun tavasta arvottaa ihmisiä heidän ihon värin mukaan”

    Miten suomessa arvotetaan ihmisiä eri tavalla?

    “Kiinassa tuhannet silpovat “vinoja silmiä” ollakseen eurooppalaisia.”

    Varsin barbaarista ja harmillista ettei omia erityispiirteitä arvosta, kun samat piirteet ovat suurimmalla osalla samanlaisia. (vertaa ihon ruskettaminen suomessa)

  77. Mark

    Allan

    No it doesn’t matter because most probably they got turned down from the job because they lack the required skills. Stupidity does not depend on skin color. Except maybe in your case.

    I see, so even when you are told that someone was refused a job because of the racism of the employer, you still insist that it must have been the stupidity of the candidate?

    And what about the other examples, does colour matter in those cases?

  78. Allan

    Yes Mark – “when i am told” like all the imaginary tales here in Migrant Tales – look for example that Tanja Karpela posting – racism my ass. I dont believe anything anyone “says” – i believe facts..

  79. Mark

    Yes Mark – “when i am told” like all the imaginary tales here in Migrant Tales – look for example that Tanja Karpela posting – racism my ass. I dont believe anything anyone “says” – i believe facts..

    So, my questions were too difficult? You decided to change the subject?

  80. Mark

    Allan

    I dont believe anything anyone “says” – i believe facts..

    Sometimes, the only ‘facts’ you have are what people say.

  81. Allan

    Voi Sasu:

    “Intiassa tuhannet valkaisevat ihoa ollakseen eurooppalaisia ja siellä on ehkä joku pari sataa valkoista. Intiassa silti uskotaan että ollakseen hyvä sinun on oltava valkoinen. Minä puhun tavasta arvottaa ihmisiä heidän ihon värin mukaan en siitä, mikä lukumääräisesti on alueen normi.”

    Joo, olet oikeassa, paitsi Intiassa ihon tummuusasteen mukaan arvottaminen on noin 2-3000 vuotta vanha juttu. Jos lukisit hieman historiaa, kaikki arjalaiset, persialaiset, mughalit ja muut tulisivat tutuiksi. Osa noista on ihan selkeästi eri rodullisen perusteen takia, valloittajat olivat eri värisiä ja muodostivat yläluokan, mutta muistetaan euroopassakin oli agraariyhteiskunnassa tumma=pellolla duunissa vaalea=katon alla laiskana, vai miksi naiset puuteroivat ihonsa lyijyvalkoisella? Siksi eurooppalainen tapa ruskettaa tuntuu hassulta, kun taas logiikka on: vaalea iho = tehtaassa sisalla duunari ruskettunut = ulkona vapaana, mutta tämä muoti on taasen tullut Eurooppaankin viimeisen 100 vuoden aikana. Ihan samanlainen ero kuin lihavuus = hieno asia ennen, keskiajalla oli laihoja vain pyhimykset, maalaustaiteessa Rubensin naiset ym, ja 20-luvun lihotusmainokset ja nyt taas anoreksiamallit on muotia.

    “Kiinassa tuhannet silpovat “vinoja silmiä” ollakseen eurooppalaisia.”
    Ehkä, mutta lienee sentään vähemmän elämää haittaava muoti kuin jalkojen sitominen?

  82. D4R

    Sasu: Miten me poistumme tästä.
    Aloitetaan sillä että värilliset alkavat perustaamaan omia lehtiä ja ohjelmia jotka auttavat rakentamaan terveellitä minä kuvaa.
    Kun menemme monikulttuurisuus juhliin, alamme puhua millä tavalla niissä kulttuureja esitetään ja miten se eroaa eurooppalaisen kulttuurin esitystavasta.
    Ennakkoluuloja voidaan poistaa samalla tavoin kuin fobioitakin hoidetaan. Siis vieroittamalla
    Pitäkäämme mahdollisimman paljon ääntä niin meitä ei unohdeta.
    Värilliset: Ei ole mitään järkeä etsiä hyväksyntää tähän yhteiskuntaan. Sensijaan hyväksykäämme itsemme sellaisina kuin olemme.

    Ehdottamasti sasun kanssa samaa mieltä, on ihan turha odottaa Suomelta hyväksyntä se ei tule tapahtumaan, tämän maan järjestelmä on rakennettu van Valkoioisille, katso Suomen mediat pitkälti glorifoi vaaleaihoisuutta, siinä nähdään että vaaleaihoisuus on puhdasta ja vapaa rikolisuus tendenssiä. Olen siinä samaa Mieltä Sasun kanssa, että värillisten sekä Suomalaisten että maahanmuutajien on aika kehtittää itsensä, vaikka perustaa oma media joka varsinaisesti keskittyy heihin. Tämä tämän hetken Suomen media ei oikein välitä Värillisistä, tarkoitan värillisillä Aasialaisila afrikkalaisiin.

  83. Yossie

    D4R

    “Suomen mediat pitkälti glorifoi vaaleaihoisuutta”

    Millä tavalla? Jaa käytännön esimerkki. Linkki mielellään

    “vaaleaihoisuus on puhdasta ja vapaa rikolisuus tendenssiä.”

    Haha, kun vaan oliskin. Eiköhän lehet retostele oikein kunnolla “maan tavasta”, possukerhosta, hyvä veli verkosta. Jaadaan miljoonat kavereille ja vedetään välistä. Näin nyt Keskustan vaalirahat ja Finnairin johdon holmöilyt tulee ensimmäisenä mieleen.

  84. Farang

    Sasu, kokeilepa kirjoittaa vaikka englanniksi, ehkä sinun jutuistasi sitten saa jotain selvääkin. On turha odottaa järkeviä vastauksia jos kirjoittelet sellaista tekstiä jota ei ymmärrä kukaan.

  85. eyeopener

    This Finn with a Swedish name is really simple.

    He can’t even give an reason for the question he ask me!! Very simple: look it up in your dbase at Hommaforum. There you find the answer YOU WANT TO HEAR.

    Maybe simply he can’t find a job himself. Spend his time simply chasing ghost facts. As so many googlers.

    Ylirauta is a place where simple people can jerk off, piss the wall and relieve. Simple as that.

    Go there and enjoy the “black room” Very simple.

  86. Göran

    Migrant Tales

    ”This is important to state SOME Finns as opposed to Finns. Then we’d commit the same mistake as the Halla-ahos of Finland, when they group ALL immigrants in one bag. Extemists like to use the term ALL because it gets them off. Even so, not even a child believes that ALL people, or 100%, are “bad.” Just like when I was a kid in Finland during the summers, white Finns warmed me that ALL Roma were thieves. How could it be possible? It’s mathematically impossible.”

    Where has Halla-aho and Halla-ahos said that all immigrants are bad?

  87. eyeopener

    As a linguistic I presume that Halla-aho cum sui know very well that you do not have the use the word ALL to suggest ALL. Linguistics can turn a blind eye on the ignorant.

    Journalism, marketing commmunications etc are full of examples.

    Very simple if you want to understand. And not run away from it or play s……..

    • Addy

      Sasu, I love Time Wise and admire his work. He is a tireless advocate for civil rights. I also quoted another essay of his in something I wrote about Trayvon Martin’s sensless killing yesterday…Now, let me come at this from who I am, and how I define myself and see this crazy world. I am a mother FIRST. That trumps EVERY other role that I play. No adult, armed with ANY sort of lethal weapon, has the right to chase down and confront MY teenaged son for ANY reason, provoke a REaction from him, and then KILL him for it – not even ME! PERIOD. In fact, just the very idea is totally OUTRAGEOUS to me. If you’ve got a problem with MY teenaged son due to YOUR own “suspicion” of him or some wrongdoing (real or imagined), then you call the proper authorities and let them confront and/or question him or make sure he “legally” gets escorted home or to jail or just out of “your” neighborhood or whatever. NO, it would NOT matter that he may have experimented with drugs in the past or even smoked pot or whatever THAT night or talked all crazy or “thug-like” online in the past. None of that would matter because AGAIN no armed adult has the right to play judge, jury, and executioner and take MY teenaged son out of this world – for ANY reason. And IF some armed adult stranger did do that and was NOT safely behind bars set to tell a judge and/or jury of his peers about it, then you can be for darn sure that I’d try to take that person out myself, until I was safely behind bars! Because, no OTHER teen would suffer at the hands of the adult who saw fit to end MY teenaged son’s life for NO reason other than his own suspicions and ridiculous fears. As a woman, what I am seeing and hearing right now is also highly disturbing because it sounds just like the victim blaming that goes on whenever a woman is raped. Some folks almost always try to find SOME reason, ANY reason, to blame the woman for getting raped in the first place. She brought it on herself for wearing this or that or because she was acting provocatively. Scary stuff to see and hear no matter which way I look at this.

      And it really is not possible to remove the racial stereotyping/profiling from this case either. Via timwise.org (I don’t recall from which essay this came, though)…”And please, let us have no more ignoble and dissembling rationalizations for Trayvon Martin’s death and Zimmerman’s killing of him. If you are one, like those firmly ensconced in the pathetic Sanford, Florida Police Department, trying against all logic and human feeling to square this pernicious circle, just stop it. That there had been a half-dozen or so break-ins in Zimmerman’s community, ostensibly orchestrated by black males matters not a whit. Likewise, that there was a string of robberies in my New Orleans neighborhood during my senior year of college, which were the handiwork of white men, would not have justified my being stopped by police every time I returned home from a late afternoon class, to say nothing of being accosted by some community idiot with a Charles Bronson complex. But of course, such an analogy is silly isn’t it? We all know that whites are never subjected to this kind of generalized suspicion, even when we do, indeed, fit the description of one or another bad guy on the loose. We are not all looked at sideways when yet another white male serial killer is at large, or yet another abortion clinic bomber. We don’t face police roadblocks in lily-white communities so as to catch drunk drivers, even though the data is quite clear that whites represent a disproportionate number and percentage of those driving under the influence.

      As for Zimmerman’s claims of self-defense, that anyone could believe such a lie as this is stunning. Or rather it isn’t. It makes perfect sense in a nation where blackness and danger have long been considered synonymous, such that any black male over the age of perhaps 10 can ‘reasonably’ be assumed a predator whose designs on decent people and their property are so concretized as to warrant virtually any measure invoked to monitor, control and incapacitate them. However much has changed in the U.S. since the 1960s, or for that matter the 1860s, make note of it that at least this much has not: black folks are still, in the eyes of far too many, a problem to be addressed, a riddle to be solved. And deprived of the old mechanisms of social control to which we were once so wedded, we have opted for the development of new forms: racial profiling, gated communities into which we shall police entry, zoning laws that limit who can live among us, and mass incarceration for non-violent drug offenses, among others…Oh, and when you abuse your ill-gotten authority and take the life of a young black man in the process, you don’t get to be taken seriously when you swear that your actions couldn’t have been racist because, after all, you’re Latino (this being the latest fanciful insistence of Zimmerman’s family). Dear merciful Lord, what is that supposed to prove? Racism is not about the identity of the person acting it out so much as those upon whom it is acted, and for what purpose…”

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