Debate on racism against the Somali community in Finland resembles a dead battery

by , under All categories, Enrique

By Enrique Tessieri

Taking into account the hostility and racism that Finland’s Somali community suffers, the news isn’t about racism that such nationals experience but how little has been done to address the issue. A story on YLE news Monday brings to light (again) what we all know about the country’s fourth-largest immigrant community: racism and exclusion are the rule, not the exception. 

One could ask a simple question concerning the situation. What has been done in Finland after an April 2009 survey by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA) made its disturbing conclusions?  Let’s see…Yes, now I remember! We had an election in April which prized some in the Perussuomalaiset (PS) party with a ticket to parliament for spreading racist myths about groups like the Somalis.

It would be unfair to pin blame only the PS. What is even more shameful is that traditional parties that knew better hopped on the PS bandwagon and began to echo their rhetoric.

Helsingin Sanomat wrote the following after the FRA study was published almost two years ago: “When it comes to treatment at a bank or a shop, Finland’s Somalis emerged among the groups most discriminated against. However, compared with other countries’ minorities the Finnish Somalis were more informed of competent authorities who could give them support or advice. Yet some 69% of the interviewed Finnish Somalis said that they did not know of any organization that could offer them support services to victims of discrimination.”

If Finland is going to deal with racism it will have to address the discrimination that Somalis face in our society.

Showing the problem on national television is a step in the right direction. Even so, the YLE story is nothing more than jumper cables that attempt to kick start a dead battery of a car in -30C temperature.  Even if the car’s engine will start, we still haven’t resolved the problem, which is the existing battery.

Finland needs a new battery when debating and finding proactive solutions to the role of ever-growing racism in our society.

  1. depressed N Worried Immigrant

    Enrique finns permitted us to enter their country but did little to nothing to help us integrate, now it got to a point where we somalis are being used a tool by politician to succeed their political agenda. ive been attacked many times by racist and when i informed to the police never it went to court or the police never contacted me back so i just let it be and this happened many times that i lost count. But when i defend myself im the victim, ive been convicted becus i was attacked by defending myself. this got me to a point where i dont trust the finn police anymore simply i just dont call them anymore fearing they may arrest me for no reason. The reason why we’re taken as a shooting point by all finns IS OF THE COLOR OF OUR SKIN AND MAJOR FACTOR IS THE RELIGION.

    • Enrique

      Hi depressed N Worried Immigrant, I totally agree with you. The situation resembles the following: We give refugees who are minors asylum but we are cruel and heartless by not allowing their parents to come here. That example, I believe, pictures the state of our refugee-immigration policy: it only goes half way.

      But you are doing something important now and that is airing your thoughts and telling other what they think. Even if I disagree with Allan, I think it is a positive matter that he speaks with that side that he criticizes so passionately. You are probably the first Somali whom he has ever held a discussion with. Thank you for making it possible.

      I have to agree as well that skin color is a major factor and religion. There are exceptions and racism happens differently to different people. How we react to it is also a personal matter.

      Those that claim that there isn’t any racism in Finland want to shut you up because deep down inside it shames them and they know its wrong. They use dumb arguments to maintain myths about other groups because it is the best way in their opinion to avoid seeing themselves in the mirror and admitting that what they preach is racist and, above all, totally out of line with our values.

  2. Mark

    DWI

    Thanks for giving voice to your frustrations here. Many of the things you point out have been highlighted in this blog, including the idea that even complaining about racism makes you an object for further attacks, either on your integrity or on your ‘fears’. The vast majority of people harbouring racist views have never experienced this kind of marginalisation. Surprisingly, though, there is also a small minority that have experienced racism, but rather than attack the majority view, they simply transfer their resentments. People do lots of strange things to ‘fit in’.

    I think ‘belonging’ is at the heart of the issue. People want to belong, and mostly they want to belong to the ‘in-groups’ rather than the out-groups. If they hear a language they don’t understand, it makes some people feel uncomfortable, and they don’t like that. If they see a group of people that they feel they don’t have membership with, it makes them uncomfortable, because the force or fear of belonging is strong. Some people find it easier to stand outside the majority groupings, but some people really struggle. I would say these people are vulnerable to holding racist views as a kind of defense against these fears and insecurities.

    The more afraid they are of ‘not belonging’, the more strongly they try to enforce the boundaries of belonging to the group they feel they are part of, or want to be part of. This has two effects: it shows they are ‘loyal’ to the group, and it reinforces their sense of ‘belonging’, which compensates for their insecurity in encountering groups they don’t belong to. The greater the fear, the greater the passion to seperate: belonging becomes polarised into ‘we love us, our country, our family vs. we hate them, their culture, their intrusion into our family’.

    DWI

    I would advise you don’t fall into the trap of expressing your frustrations with absolutes, like ‘The reason why we’re taken as a shooting point by all finns IS OF THE COLOR OF OUR SKIN AND MAJOR FACTOR IS THE RELIGION. You are in danger of alienating sympathetic Finns and also you give ammunition to the racists, who then use it to say you are being racists by using the word ‘all’ (ignoring the fact that they lump all foreigners or ethnicities into one group in their own propaganda), and also that you are paranoid about it. It’s pretty normal in the language of frustration, but when you stand up to racism, it’s good to preempt the response from racists, who are likely to be incensed that you had the gall to speak out against them. 🙂

    I hope you encourage other Somalis to come on here to tell how it actually is like. The hardest things for racists to deny is first-hand witness testimony. They will deny of course, but they have to call you liars, and that doesn’t make them look good, it’s a risky strategy. Also, they are much less likely to call you liars ‘to your face’. 🙂

    I also sincerely hope that hearing your story will encourage other white Finns and other immigrants to take a stand, and voice their condemnation of racism. It’s such a simple thing to do, and it doesn’t have to be a specifically ‘political statement’, but just taking our society back from those who would make ‘prejudice’ the norm. It is idiots like Allan who poison the atmosphere in Finland and make everyone else painfully conscious of race and ethnicity. Our identities should be things that we celebrate and share, while also enjoying the benefits of healthy social criticism.

  3. Depressed n Worried Immigrant

    Enrique : Those that claim that there isn’t any racism in Finland want to shut you up because deep down inside it shames them and they know its wrong. They use dumb arguments to maintain myths about other groups because it is the best way in their opinion to avoid seeing themselves in the mirror and admitting that what they preach is racist and, above all, totally out of line with our values.at

    It’s logical that only those who’re victim of racism like myself can only speak about racism if it happens or not, not Allan, he never had to face racism or prejudices becus of his ethnicity or skin color or religion. But like you said it’s good that he’s having a voice too so we can discuss about this desease called racism, perhaps find a cure for it. I’m glad to debate allan maybe by debating him he will drop his prejudices against immigrants and finally realise that we’re only humanbeings like him who deserve to have and good life. Bytheway, those fair skin with very dark hair face prejudice and racism too here in finland.

  4. Martin-Éric

    Enrique, please document yourself on a committee of the Ministry of Internal Affairs that is called Keskiviikkoklubbi then draw your own conclusions. Something IS being done, but it hasn’t resulted in a concrete strategy to sensibilize the lower bureaucracy (such as the police) or population at large yet.

  5. Depressed n Worried Immigrant

    Mark : I would advise you don’t fall into the trap of expressing your frustrations with absolutes, like ‘The reason why we’re taken as a shooting point by all finns IS OF THE COLOR OF OUR SKIN AND MAJOR FACTOR IS THE RELIGION. You are in danger of alienating sympathetic Finns and also you give ammunition to the racists, who then use it to say you are being racists by using the word ‘all’ (ignoring the fact that they lump all foreigners or ethnicities into one group in their own propaganda), and also that you are paranoid about it. It’s pretty normal in the language of frustration, but when you stand up to racism, it’s good to preempt the response from racists, who are likely to be incensed that you had the gall to speak out against them. ´

    Mark i cant be racist i dont have the power. even if i had i wouldnt be a racist, i dont see any point of hating people becus of the color of their skin. I dont claim that all finns are racist. i know great finns who are not racist but they dont do enough job to speak up against racism tho racist are the ones who are having majority voices in this country. I see alot of racism in the medical center. Im even scared of going there. Just two months ago i got respitory infection went to see a doctor, nurse tkk me to patien room i sat down and told her that i was feeling very sick and i had to see a doctor. She looked me with strange stare and told me without checking my temp, you dont need a doctor your fine. I argued with her about my condition, she told me to go or else she will call the security. So left and went to the lobby just out of frustration standing there thinking what to do. Then luckily a doctor passing by asked me what’s wrong i told her what happened, she was kind to take me to her cheking. So my point is, these kind of incidents is what i as a somalian have to deal, not getting proper medical treatment becus of these racist who seem t be every where nowadays. Im not saying ALL finns are racist, not at all but the ones who’re, the ones messing up this country. This incident just shows you that city councils are not doing something against these racism occurances. Nowadays even nurses can act on us the way like becus nobody is speaking up against racism. I WILL CORRECT **ALL FINNS**PART TO SOME FINNS. I respect finland and it’s people i think finns are wonderful smart people but they just need to tackle this social ill more efficiently.

  6. justicedemon

    Martin-Éric

    If you mean this project, then this is the initiative described in the YLE news broadcast.

    The project database description is a bit odd, as the working group was appointed by the Ministry of Employment and the Economy (and has a TEM code), but the appointment decision was signed by officials at the Ministry of the Interior and the initiative is financed under the Immigration Department budget of the latter Ministry. I assume that this was due to the restructuring of government departments last spring, but it’s still odd.

  7. Mark

    DWI

    Mark i cant be racist i dont have the power.

    I disagree. Even an opinion carries some power, even if it is never expressed. If you were to decide that all whites are racist, in my book, that would be responding to racism with racism.

    If you mean you cannot be racist in the sense of denying someone’s rights, or denying them a job or healthcare, then no, you probably have that power to express institutional racism in that way. Very few individuals do, but they can still be racist, and even a small amount of racism can be exaggerated in institutional contexts to bring negative consequences. Racism isn’t an ‘on-off’ thing, i.e. that either people are or they are not racist. I would say that people’s opinions can be coloured by racism in ways they don’t realise, while others are out and out racists.

    For example, in the story about your visit to the health centre, the fact the nurse threatened to call security rather than try to resolve it with you shows she felt a sense of threat. That threat could easily have come from simply having been exposed too often to media ideas or friends unquestioned casual remarks about black people as violent or unpredictable, without any personal experience to counter those ideas.

    If we questioned her, I very much doubt that she would be aware of that having influenced her actions of feelings, even if it clearly had, in which case she would blame you and say you were being threatening. That’s an awful position for you to be in, and I would understand you getting angry even at the suggestion (and threatening to call security – that would have really got my goat up if someone had said that), and then that anger in turn is used by the other person as further evidence used against you. A no-win situation for you.

    The only thing that might reveal the truth of the matter is to see the nurse respond to a white Finn behaving in exactly the same way, i.e. a white Finn being insistent on the need to see the doctor and see if her reaction is any different. On balance, I’d say her behaviour appears to reflect some racism. Just mentioning that she will security seems way over the top for what should be a ‘supportive’ care environment.

    But I’d also give some consideration to whether perhaps your arguing with her also reflected your tension and lack of trust of health care professionals, and that that tension might have been communicated to her. If you are treated like that or similarly every time you go to the health centre, then I would understand you being tense. If you were tense, then I would understand the nurse might sense it and it would increase or even prime any sense of threat. The whole relationship becomes a downwardly spiraling experience for everyone caught up in it. In other words, I think racism becomes entrenched through experiences exactly like this, where subtle tensions give rise to misunderstandings, which further enhance negative stereotypes.

    Who fault is it? In that situation, it’s genuinely hard to pin an exact cause. It’s easy to see you both as victims of ‘society’s racial tensions’. However, it’s important that individuals also take responsibility for their own actions. The white majority must put their hand up and say, more can be done to stand up and speak out against those that deliberately spread lies and mistrust of foreigners. That’s what this blog does, and why I admire Enrique for setting it up.

    One of the things that does really annoy me about Allan (who is on vacation, I understand) is that he doesn’t understand or acknowledge for one second how living in an even partially racist society makes the minority feel scared and vulnerable. And when people in that situation are quite likely to get a little paranoid. But Allan uses even the tiniest hint of that to dismiss all racism. It’s a despicable way to defend racism, as it uses our human vulnerabilities as further weapons against us. But then again, Allan is an emotional mess, and it’s clear that he was once a victim too. Now, he’s victimising other people in return. He’s not the first and he won’t be the last.

  8. Depressed n Worried Immigrant

    mark : One of the things that does really annoy me about Allan (who is on vacation, I understand) is that he doesn’t understand or acknowledge for one second how living in an even partially racist society makes the minority feel scared and vulnerable. And when people in that situation are quite likely to get a little paranoid.

    Mark you maybe right, maybe i was being paranoid about the nurse, maybe she felt threatened by my appearance looks. But in noway i was being hostile or disrespectful to her. maybe it’s fewer incidents. But in some odd reason i get these incidents alot. maybe i am paranoid about finns these days but in noway i am racist to white people or any other race it’s just not me. I believe that if authorities in finland will not do proper job fighting against racism am affraid there will be alot of paranoia and tension between finns and immigrants.

  9. Mark

    DWi

    But in noway i was being hostile or disrespectful to her.

    In which case, her threat to call security seems very hard to justify. It’s almost like she expected you to ‘be trouble’.

    I believe that if authorities in finland will not do proper job fighting against racism am affraid there will be alot of paranoia and tension between finns and immigrants.

    Absolutely. While we all have responsibilities as individuals, there are far too many individuals in Finland who have no intention of giving up their negative view of immigration, and justify this with negative profiling of particular ethnicities or religions. Then, it is clearly the responsibility of politicians to speak out. Politicians in the mainstream parties really need to take on the likes of PS, otherwise it’s ‘open season’ for them to feed off that resentment.

  10. Allan

    “I see alot of racism in the medical center. Im even scared of going there. Just two months ago i got respitory infection went to see a doctor, nurse tkk me to patien room i sat down and told her that i was feeling very sick and i had to see a doctor. She looked me with strange stare and told me without checking my temp, you dont need a doctor your fine. I argued with her about my condition, she told me to go or else she will call the security. So left and went to the lobby just out of frustration standing there thinking what to do. Then luckily a doctor passing by asked me what’s wrong i told her what happened, she was kind to take me to her cheking. So my point is, these kind of incidents is what i as a somalian have to deal, not getting proper medical treatment becus of these racist who seem t be every where nowadays.”

    I would call that a “normal experience in the health centre”. They turn you about even if you come in carrying your head, they say its juts a flesh wound.

    This exactly shows why I do not believe there is any “racism” in Finland. You faced no racism whatsoever – however you invented the racism and victimize yourself and whine, whereas any Finn in the same situation would just say “perkele” and go to a private clinic.Mark & Enrique take your claim at a face value “what i as a somalian have to deal, not getting proper medical treatment becus of these racist ” as some kind of “proof” of “racism” – I say you are just being silly. Got bad treatment, yes, but not because of “racism”.

    Yes, the nurse may have been scared of you, and she wasn’t going to argue with you. Maybe the chip on the sholder that makes you cry “racism” makes you seem threatening?

    Tell me now, you have to pay a ticket in the bus, you forget it and the ticket inspector comes and fines you – is that “racism” ? How about if you park wrong on the street and get a ticket – isn’t that also “racism”?

    I actually have had discussions with a few somalis, and one of them reacted to this piece of news on YLE thusly: Aah mun maanmiehet osaavat tämän tempun siis pukea martyyrin viittaa ylleen. Kyllä tekis miellä mennä potkasemaan ryhtiä noihin idiootteihin kuhan keksisin miten

    The thing is you are saying *everything* you face is “racism”. So really, people gave up trying to pay any attention to you guys as you do nothing but whine about “racism” all the time – WHEN IT DOES NOT EXIST. So really, stop being silly. Then maybe I will start having some sympathy.

    The nurse was being an asshole – nothing to do with racism, its called “arvauskeskus” for a reason. Go to a private next time. They’ll be nice, take your money, and tell you’re a hypochondriac.

    • Enrique

      –This exactly shows why I do not believe there is any “racism” in Finland.

      Yes, Alan, but what you are really saying is that Finland has not foreigners. Colorblind racism? Yes, I think that would sum it up.

  11. Allan

    “more can be done to stand up and speak out against those that deliberately spread lies and mistrust of foreigners.”

    Yes, that is why I am speaking up against you. You are effecting vulnerable people, end of the day their mind is finding racism everywhere. If I started imagining things like that I couldn’t function in the society either.

  12. Mark

    The thing is you are saying *everything* you face is “racism”. So really, people gave up trying to pay any attention to you guys as you do nothing but whine about “racism” all the time – WHEN IT DOES NOT EXIST. So really, stop being silly. Then maybe I will start having some sympathy.

    You mean, be silent, and then you will have some sympathy? What good is it then, Allan, because you’ll have to express it.

    Fact is, you don’t know for sure that it wasn’t racism. Her reaction seems extreme. Imagine if it was an old Finnish lady insisting that she she’s the doctor. Would it be normal for the nurse to threaten to call security?

    If you insist on getting proof for racism Allan, then chances are you can carry on denying racism until you get to your grave. It just ain’t that simple.

    As long as you carry on saying ‘it does not exist’, then you appear as fixed into your delusions as you accuse Somali’s of being fixed in paranoia. Even in this situation, you cannot flatly say it did not exist. It’s simply difficult to prove.

    But people generally know when someone has a negative attitude towards them. Couple that very specific remarks like ‘fuck off back to Africa’, and it’s very clear that what we are talking about is racism.

    You should accept that immigrants feel some paranoia in this situation Allan. But you won’t help to lessen that if you keep your head up the reindeer’s arse!

  13. Mark

    The thing is you are saying *everything* you face is “racism”. So really, people gave up trying to pay any attention to you guys as you do nothing but whine about “racism” all the time – WHEN IT DOES NOT EXIST. So really, stop being silly. Then maybe I will start having some sympathy.

    You mean, be silent, and then you will have some sympathy? What good is it then, Allan, because you’ll have to express it.

    Fact is, you don’t know for sure that it wasn’t racism. Her reaction seems extreme. Imagine if it was an old Finnish lady insisting that she she’s the doctor. Would it be normal for the nurse to threaten to call security?

    If you insist on getting proof for racism Allan, then chances are you can carry on denying racism until you get to your grave. It just ain’t that simple.

    As long as you carry on saying ‘it does not exist’, then you appear as fixed into your delusions as you accuse Somali’s of being fixed in paranoia. Even in this situation, you cannot flatly say it did not exist. It’s simply difficult to prove.

    But people generally know when someone has a negative attitude towards them. Couple that very specific remarks like ‘fuck off back to Africa’, and it’s very clear that what we are talking about is racism.

    You should accept that immigrants feel some paranoia in this situation Allan. But you won’t help to lessen that if you keep your head up the reindeer’s arse!

  14. Allan

    Enrique, there is “equal treatment”. If I meet an asshole, I can not whine about racism. So why should you, if its an equal opportunity asshole we’re facing?

  15. Mark

    You are effecting vulnerable people, end of the day their mind is finding racism everywhere. If I started imagining things like that I couldn’t function in the society either.

    And you are definitely not helping by denying it flatly. Your whole approach to DWI is resentful and disrespectful. You dismiss the possibility of racism while everyone else is still pondering the fact that she threatened to call security?

    If you started to show anything else other than the resentment and anger towards Somalis, then maybe you would begin to see how that resentment can lead to the perception that you are a racist.

  16. Allan

    “Fact is, you don’t know for sure that it wasn’t racism. Her reaction seems extreme. Imagine if it was an old Finnish lady insisting that she she’s the doctor. Would it be normal for the nurse to threaten to call security?”

    Fact is, he’s not a somali grandmother is he? Try visiting one of those clinics with winos and druggies loitering the hallways and you’ll see more security guards than nurses on shift. You try to get attention they’ll tell you to sit down and shut up.

    “If you insist on getting proof for racism Allan, then chances are you can carry on denying racism until you get to your grave. It just ain’t that simple.”

    Yes, its simple to justy claim everything is racism. Boy calling wolf.

    “Even in this situation, you cannot flatly say it did not exist. It’s simply difficult to prove.”

    Its always difficult to prove things that don’t exist, like the existence of God. Racism is your holy ghost.

    “But people generally know when someone has a negative attitude towards them. Couple that very specific remarks like ‘fuck off back to Africa’, and it’s very clear that what we are talking about is racism.”

    Yes, and the nurse said that did she?

    “You should accept that immigrants feel some paranoia in this situation Allan.”

    Yes, and you should accept that I find them stupid.

  17. Allan

    “You dismiss the possibility of racism while everyone else is still pondering the fact that she threatened to call security?”

    I can not help everyone else is stupid – without experience – go to a clinic as I said. Its a zoo there. I can understand the nurses are on a short fuse, can you? Do you know anyone working the ER?

    “If you started to show anything else other than the resentment and anger towards Somalis, then maybe you would begin to see how that resentment can lead to the perception that you are a racist.”

    I resent these claims of “racism” and get angry with demands of preferential treatment. And my percveption of you is that you are stupid. You believe all the lies you are told.

  18. Mark

    Allan

    Yes, its simple to justy claim everything is racism. Boy calling wolf.

    You deny pushing an 8-year old girl off a train and calling her an ape is racism, or rather, you deny that it happened as reported. There is no convincing you.

    Regardless of your explanation for the nurse’s behaviour, it will not tally with people’s own experiences of health centres in Finland. Who said it was a clinic with whinos and druggies in the corridors?

    Yes, and the nurse said that did she?

    No, but a couple of days ago, I was told of how one Finnish woman said words along those lines to a black African, who was a friend of my friend. My friend is a Finnish woman, and she challenged the other Finnish woman over what she said and even asked the bar staff to throw her out. She was appalled. However, her African friend was philosophical. I guess you would have liked him. The point is, my friend did the right thing in challenging that kind of racism. With people saying things like that, it poisons the whole atmosphere in Finland. But you have your eyes closed. You don’t see even a fraction of the reality. You are so sensitive about the reputation of Finns, even to the point where you will happily insult Somalis, their culture, their status as refugees etc., and not see the contradiction in your stance in any way.

    Anyhow, so how come you were speaking to Somalians. Tell me more. Because to date, you have given absolutely no evidence of knowing anything about their culture here in Finland.

  19. Mark

    I resent these claims of “racism” and get angry with demands of preferential treatment.

    What would be really nice is that if you resented racism even more. You care more about your reputation than you do about the facts. Simple.

  20. Allan

    “You deny pushing an 8-year old girl off a train and calling her an ape is racism, or rather, you deny that it happened as reported. ”

    You haven’t been in public transport with kids getting out from school apparently. Nobody knows what happened, but unlike you I have a “logical scenario” in mind. I believe in logic, not stories, have to in my line of work, so maybe I am overanalytical. I seldom get it wrong though.

    ” Yes, and the nurse said that did she?

    No, but a couple of days ago, I was told of how one Finnish woman said words along those lines to a black African, who was a friend of my friend.”

    Yes, and anansi the spider told me this story of how the fox stole the brain out of the Britons head. Drunk people in a bar. Yay! How about you get the philosopher to write here. He might actually have some words of wisdom. Funny though, it was again a woman, lots of sour ladies around there these days. Why is that?

  21. Allan

    Mark – if a Finnish girl had been pushed out of the train and she had been called an ape, would that have been “racism” ? If not, then why would it matter? The person would been in teh same place and in the same manner done the same thing when the kid was barging into him. OK, so maybe he might have called a Finnish girl something else. But all you have there is a result of an accident due to bad manners and age conflict. The only reason the incident is in teh papers was because of somali. So the only “raciem” there is invented. The person didn’t deliberately go through the genes of all girls on the train and deliberately choose this girl did he? So if the “racism” is actually interpreting the usage of the word “ape”, which that also isn’t necessarily a sign of anuthing – the whole “issue” again has everything else that is an “issue” about it (kids barging in, old people being annoyed) than “racism”. It happens daily in public transport – kids have no manners. And some old people have no manners either. Therefore is not anything I willl pay attentuion to as some “proof fo racism” rather a pathetic attempt to make yourself important.

  22. Mark

    You haven’t been in public transport with kids getting out from school apparently. Nobody knows what happened, but unlike you I have a “logical scenario” in mind. I believe in logic, not stories, have to in my line of work, so maybe I am overanalytical. I seldom get it wrong though.

    And the ‘ape’ comment was merely embellishment. Yeah, right. However, in this case as in all the cases you have criticised, you are in no position to discover if you ‘got it wrong’. What is clear though is that you have called into question the integrity of the individuals involved. Merely to satisfy your insatiable desire to deny first, ask questions later (if ever).

    If this is your stance, then you can at least move your logical arse a little further in the direction of decency, and say, ‘if this happened how it was said to happen, I condemn it. However, I’m not certain that this is how it happened’. You don’t have to call people liars or maybe crass statements denying racism.

    Yes, and anansi the spider told me this story of how the fox stole the brain out of the Britons head. Drunk people in a bar.

    This is why you are a complete jerk, Allan. You try to come across as quite logical and pragmatic, but then there is this rather nasty streak in you that comes out the minute you are faced with anything that ‘doesn’t compute’.

    Funny though, it was again a woman, lots of sour ladies around there these days. Why is that?

    You tell me.

    Mark said: “What would be really nice is that if you resented racism even more. ”
    Since when did Finland have apartheid legislation?

    So, unless its racism on the level of ‘apartheid’ legislation’, you cannot condemn it. It’s all or nothing for you, isn’t it? Just out of interest, do you in fact condemn the racism of South Africa’s apartheid?

    And as usual, you have still not answered my repeated request for you to provide evidence of your experiences of the Somali community in Finland. Your silence is deafening! 🙂

  23. Mark

    Mark – if a Finnish girl had been pushed out of the train and she had been called an ape, would that have been “racism” ?

    The ironic thing is the girl in question probably was Finnish. Enough said.

    But all you have there is a result of an accident due to bad manners and age conflict.

    Yep, a nice case of ‘nothing buttery’.

    The only reason the incident is in teh papers was because of somali. So the only “raciem” there is invented.

    It’s only invented if you decide the ‘ape’ comment was somehow ‘neutral’, and that ‘pushing the girl off the train’ was somehow, she was unable to barge in. You have changed the story so completely that I’m not one bit surprised that you cannot see any racism.

    But, really, if you are being logical, then Occum’s razor would tell you that taking all the elements together, racism is by far the simplest explanation, than a strange man calling a girl an ape, who just happens to be black, while pushing her off a train. I’m guessing that if this ‘barging’ happens all the time on trains, then this girl has also experienced it, and why is it that she hasn’t complained to her father of racism every school day?

    The person didn’t deliberately go through the genes of all girls on the train and deliberately choose this girl did he?

    And that’s what a racist has to do? This is nonsense you are throwing out, Allan.

    So if the “racism” is actually interpreting the usage of the word “ape”, which that also isn’t necessarily a sign of anuthing – the whole “issue” again has everything else that is an “issue” about it (kids barging in, old people being annoyed) than “racism”. It happens daily in public transport – kids have no manners. And some old people have no manners either. Therefore is not anything I willl pay attentuion to as some “proof fo racism” rather a pathetic attempt to make yourself important.

    I can happily tell you that you make yourself look like an idiot saying things like this. You like this phrase don’t you ‘it happens all the time’, in trains, in health centres. Nope, Allan, it doesn’t happen all the time.

  24. justicedemon

    Allan

    I actually have had discussions with a few somalis, and one of them reacted to this piece of news on YLE thusly: Aah mun maanmiehet osaavat tämän tempun siis pukea martyyrin viittaa ylleen. Kyllä tekis miellä mennä potkasemaan ryhtiä noihin idiootteihin kuhan keksisin miten

    Such an obvious lie from you again, Allan. The news broadcast was yesterday and you now claim to have “discussed” it already with a Finnish-speaking Somali, even though we know that you are in the UK.

    This remark was anonymously posted verbatim on Hommaforum at 22:23:49 yesterday evening, less than an hour and a half after the news broadcast on national TV in Finland and before the clip had even appeared on the areena.yle.fi website. At most you have found a posting from an anonymous online username who claims to be a Somali. That’s all. There is no indication that the remark was addressed to you personally, Allan, nor that you responded and any dialogue followed (the username concerned did not post again in the thread). In other words, you have no mutual acquaintance whatsoever.

  25. depressed N Worried Immigrant

    Allan : This exactly shows why I do not believe there is any “racism” in Finland. You faced no racism whatsoever – however you invented the racism and victimize yourself and whine, whereas any Finn in the same situation would just say “perkele” and go to a private clinic.Mark & Enrique take your claim at a face value “what i as a somalian have to deal, not getting proper medical treatment becus of these racist ” as some kind of “proof” of “racism” – I say you are just being silly. Got bad treatment, yes, but not because of “racism”.

    Allan who’re you to say there is no racism in finland? lol i mean, you never been victim of racism in finland so it’s natural for you to say there is no racism i can understand that. My point of the story about the incident with the nurse is , those kind of incidents happens alot to me wich is not normal typical behaviour. I dont cry out racism i speak up against any wrongdom and racism is one. Allan you’re a joke man for saying there is no racism in finland.

  26. depressed N Worried Immigrant

    Allan : Yes, that is why I am speaking up against you. You are effecting vulnerable people, end of the day their mind is finding racism everywhere. If I started imagining things like that I couldn’t function in the society either.

    What?? are you seriouse ? effecting our minds? Allan how come you’re speaking for us liek you lived our lifes. like i said before Im somalian and ive been victim of racim many times, your not in position to say there is no racism it’s totally ubsurd.

  27. Hannu

    I browsed thru that report and seems that 32% of somalis have been victims of racially motivated assault/threat/serious harassment.
    Then we see that non report levels are up to 90%.
    So i conclude that by nationality 178 or by born in 374 somalis were victims and reported that to police.
    Now when we look police stats we see that 94 or 136 actually reported something what that police study picked up as possibly racist crime…
    Can you explain difference? And yes i used 2009 figures in all.

  28. depressed N Worried Immigrant

    Allan : Its always difficult to prove things that don’t exist, like the existence of God. Racism is your holy ghost.

    Allan why do you believe there is no racism in finland at all, and can you please define what is racism? and also how can you be so sure that racism doesnt exist? is’t perhaps you have never encountered racism against you as an individual in here?

  29. eyeopener

    Hi guys. We all know that Allan is a “crap-guy”, who’s underbelly gets stimulated by the pressure to poo. He has no arguments, no facts no nothing. He should learn to appreciate Bob Dylan’s Blowing in the wind. He is no more than that.

    JD. Cool work!!

  30. Mark

    Hannu

    1) The area of coverage for the Finnish data in the MIDIS study was the Helsinki Metropolitan area.

    2) The sample size was 484, with 32% reporting in-person crime among Somalis, which would amount to 154 cases.

    3) with a 90% non-report level (where did you get this from?), that means 10% would be expected to report to the police, which is just 15 cases (where did you get the figures 178 and 374 from? Not from the MIDIS study).

    4) this also covers threat of assault, and it’s not clear how many of those the police would record as ‘assaults’.

    5) the 90% non-reporting, is this for assault or harassment? I cannot find this in the MIDIS report.

  31. Hannu

    1) i looked whole finland. I assume there is no huge difference.
    2) i looked amount of somalis in finland. Born in somalia or mother language somali
    3) page 16 and i looked amount of somalis in here in 2009 and assumed 32% are victims and remover 90% of victims. Without removal its 3739 and 1782 (language, born)
    4) it doesnt matter since police study searches all where is slightest possibility of racial motive. Includind what victim said.
    5) page 16 and for all if i understood correctly.

  32. joku

    Just a comment on the girl-pushed-off-the-train incident:

    If this incident happened, it is of course absolutely criminally wrong, no question about it.

    I would like to point out though that calling the child an ape in Finnish would not be linked with skin colour or race. The Finnish language only has the one word “apina” for monkeys or apes. I’ve often called children in my family circle this when I’ve been annoyed by them. More like “little monkeys” – shows irritation, nothing more.

    So that particular thing does not necessarily convey a racist attitude. Not that I’m trying to downplay the seriousness of the case – but wanted to point out that sometimes there are cultural things that can be misinterpreted. Not the physical aggression, though.

  33. Mark

    Joku

    The Finnish language only has the one word “apina” for monkeys or apes. I’ve often called children in my family circle this when I’ve been annoyed by them. More like “little monkeys” – shows irritation, nothing more.

    So that particular thing does not necessarily convey a racist attitude. Not that I’m trying to downplay the seriousness of the case – but wanted to point out that sometimes there are cultural things that can be misinterpreted. Not the physical aggression, though.

    I take that on board, Joku and great that you condemned it without loads of qualifiers.

    We also have this ‘monkey’ thing in English. In fact, I’m always calling my kids ‘monkeys’. In English, it refers to their ‘mischievousness’, much like the Chinese meaning. Maybe that’s how it came into English usage. However, it is also true that ‘monkey’ is a racist jaunt in English too. In fact, it was the habit of racist footballers to throw bananas onto the field. It’s all about context. In English, it’s even ‘affectionate’ I would say. But saying it as you push someone off the train, I really do feel that that is an extremely unlikely context for a man to be referring to a young black girl in a pleasant way. I mean, do you really think, even assuming that he tried to stop someone getting on the train because she was pushing (who the does that?), would he really say ‘now there, you naughty little monkey, you are not getting on this train’? It just stretches my belief too far…. I don’t buy it.

  34. Allan

    “Allan why do you believe there is no racism in finland at all, and can you please define what is racism? and also how can you be so sure that racism doesnt exist? is’t perhaps you have never encountered racism against you as an individual in here?”

    I have encountered a lot of things you mention. getting bad/shitty service, drunks on the street yelling obscenities, etc. etc. The thing is I can not go explaining it with “racism”, I need to explain it with “behaviour”. Now if you say that you get into trouble when you are “defending” yourself – that is also nothing got to do with “racism”. Again, if some wino hollers to me on the street and I go kick his ass, I am the one in jail. That is something I need to accept. So if you start whining of things I need to just “suck up and accept” and explain this as racism, then yes, I have ancountered “racism” 24/7 when I was younger. Satisfied now?

  35. eyeopener

    Not only when you were younger Allan!! You are The Example of Racism is the blog. And I am happy that you openly say so. Now it’s only your blablabla that distrubs a real dialogue about the issue of racism in Finland.

    My request: step back and thy to poison the English discussion. Here in Finland we don’t need persons like you.

    Thank you!!

  36. eyeopener

    Hi Hannu.
    When do you learn to make references from statiscal data?? Probably your analysis(??) boils down to wishful thinking than really understanding scientific research.

    That the Police Force undertakes a research doesnot necessarily mean correctness.Have you read the introduction chapter? Did you recognize the limitations of the research?? Have you included those in your above conclusions.

    If you would be my student I would sent you back home and redo your work. Report assessment: FAIL!!

    See you next year when the weather is cold again!!

  37. Allan

    Mark, JD didn’t catch me anywhere. A “discussion” can be face to face on a bulletin board. I have exchanged some views with this “me” character before, and he posted that quote. I can understand you have a hard time understanding things that are abstract concepts.

  38. eyeopener

    Oh Hannu
    If you are interested in my criteria to come to my assessment:

    Relevance of materials used: 0
    Originality of the research: 1
    Informed argumentation: -5
    Analytical skills demonstrated: -3
    Understanding the topic: 0
    Applicability: 0

    Overall grade: FAIL (-2)

    Some serious work to do for next winter!!

  39. Mark

    . I have exchanged some views with this “me” character before, and he posted that quote.

    Okay, well that makes some kind of sense. But you certainly appear to be making a lot more of this ‘connection’ with Somalis than was true:

    I actually have had discussions with a few somalis, and one of them reacted to this piece of news on YLE thusly

    What you meant to say was that I have had a few arguments with people claiming to be Somalis posting on the Hommaforuum site. 😀 😀

    So that’s it, then. That is your complete track record of contact with Somali’s in Finland, ‘discussions’ with anonymous posters on an anti-immigration website and yet you felt qualified to say this to the Somali DWI?

    Your countrymen came to Finland and were the ones wanting to have their own society, own rules, demanded this and that . Now you have it, you get to enjoy of their achievements.

    Me thinks you were being totally insulting on the basis of absolutely no credible evidence.

  40. Hannu

    Eyeopener, im sorry that you seem to need to be hostile.
    From Police study.

    Page 30. “If someone thought it was”.
    same page “even if suspect denies”.
    same page “can be on “hints” even if anyone didnt thought it was racism”

    Can it be more?

  41. Allan

    Mark, if you believe DWI is a somali, then I can as well belive that “me” on hommaforum is a somali as well. When I lived in Vantaa in the 90’s there was quite a few somalians around.

    The “credible evidence” I have is from the newspaper articles. OK, so media lies, fair enough. But you believe Enrique, so I believe the media. If teh somalians have not demanded prayer accommodation, refused to work for women bosses, demanded segragation in public, demanded special foods, demanded money, accommodation and transport… why I must be totally wrong and the media has been lying. Media must be lying about the crimes as well – only little girls being catapulted from trains are true stories.

    Try better you muppet.

    Somalians just believe they are better people than everyone else. Thats why other East Africans are pissed off with them as well. And that can’t be racism can it?

  42. eyeopener

    Hannu.

    Really!!

    if SOMEONE thought it was?? Who is this someone?? This terminology doesn’t belong in a scientific research!!

    Even if suspect denies?? please explanation of the situation, suspicion etc.??

    “can be on hints” is hardly a sentence that should be in a “hard report”.

    You fail to see the point my dear Hannu.

    So, redo your work and see you next winter!! Bye!!

  43. eyeopener

    Allan.

    That you are a racist is a welknown fact. It doesnot matter if you smear or try to smear other people. Even if -you have to PROVE such allegations- you might be right, that doesnot change the fact that you are the garbage can of white racist Europe, to start with the UK.

  44. depressed immigrant

    Allan : I have encountered a lot of things you mention. getting bad/shitty service, drunks on the street yelling obscenities, etc. etc. The thing is I can not go explaining it with “racism”, I need to explain it with “behaviour”. Now if you say that you get into trouble when you are “defending” yourself – that is also nothing got to do with “racism”. Again, if some wino hollers to me on the street and I go kick his ass, I am the one in jail. That is something I need to accept. So if you start whining of things I need to just “suck up and accept” and explain this as racism, then yes, I have ancountered “racism” 24/7 when I was younger. Satisfied now?

    No No Allan that’s not racism, that’s called everyday life experiences. I think you should learn the definition of racism.

  45. Hannu

    Eyeopener are you retarted? This is considered as racist crime if you report that “onkko said im retarted and thats because im (pick one).”
    If Someone as anyone thinks its racist crime be it one who reports it or other. And even if one suspect on that crime says “i did it because hes an asshole” it still is racist crime. And even if no one thinks its racist crime but someone said “negro” it is.

  46. depressed immigrant

    Allan : The “credible evidence” I have is from the newspaper articles. OK, so media lies, fair enough. But you believe Enrique, so I believe the media. If teh somalians have not demanded prayer accommodation, refused to work for women bosses, demanded segragation in public, demanded special foods, demanded money, accommodation and transport… why I must be totally wrong and the media has been lying. Media must be lying about the crimes as well – only little girls being catapulted from trains are true stories

    allan I am somalian and ive never demanded all those you just named. I also dont think im better than nobody. I believe equality, even you’re equal to me. Allan it’s easy for you to believe the media when finnish media is only one sided. You never see in finnish media reporting about somalians who work in buses or factories or even deliver your post, i know plenty of them, Go to Inex partners oy, i used to work in there, you will find many somalians busting their as** off. I bet you dont know any somaly, that’s why your quick to judge us. So yeah the finnish media always waits somalis or any other immigrants to do one mistake and they cherry pcik that and put it on big news, next everyone is hating on immigrants. Allan if you saw an african hating on us somalis i believe he or she must be dying for finns approval but by doing it in a wrong way.

  47. eyeopener

    Hannu.

    It seems you are from VEGA V of the secondary MIlKYWay. From another planet so to say. Learn to understand scientific writing procedures. Learn to read reports properly and then and only then report back to the discuss.

    You are an insult to researchers.

    Next winter, you know!!

  48. Mark

    Try better you muppet.

    I see. Like black Africans should try harder in Finland to impress you, Allan; only you wouldn’t even hear about it, because you don’t actually know any personally, and you only get your info from Hommaforuum and the media.

    And this is how you have become an expert on racism in Finland.

    Okay, you gave a list. It was from media stories, and I said that they were not counted as ‘real’ experiences, for the same reason that you gave:

    OK, so media lies, fair enough.

    …though I would say they ‘distort’ rather than lie. But I’ll humour you anyway.

    The demands that you resent so much are:

    1) prayer accommodation – what’s wrong this? Why is this such a huge inconvenience? Many many people go to church on a Sunday in Finland. Do you object to that? Do you object to ‘freedom of religion’ in Finland? Or is it only ‘freedom of the Christian religion’?

    2) refused to work for women bosses. So, how many have refused, when, and where? I have known in my lifetime several men in the UK who were not happy about working for women bosses, because of chauvinism. Would you use that information to deny Brits entry into Finland?

    3) demanded segragation in public – you have to be specific here. Do mean separate bathing times at public pools for those Muslim women who them? When my kids were small here in Finland, I took them to baby bio swimming. It is only open to babies and their parents, i.e. special groups. Would you object to that? How is this any different?

    4) demanded special foods – diabetics demand special foods in restaurants, as do those that have gluten allergies. Do you object to those?

    5) demanded money, accommodation and transport – not sure what this refers to. Basically, immigrants get the same benefits as everyone else in Finland, based on their eligibility, plus some additional and necessary benefits geared to helping with integration. Do you object to Finns also getting these benefits? Do personally know of any immigrant that has demanded money and got it? If it’s that easy, I might just try it myself! 🙂

    So that was it. These were the demands that have upset you so much.

    So that what they teach you about immigrants in Hommaforuum? Time to get out and live and little, Allan. Go find yourself some immigrants and find out what life is really like as an immigrant. You might even blow away your ridiculous notions like DWI has. He’s studied in Finland, got work and pays taxes. He’s done none of those things that you accuse Somalis of doing. So, are you going to change your opinion, now that you have ‘discussed things’ with a bona fida Somalian?

  49. Mark

    oops again.

    Try better you muppet.

    I see. Like black Africans should try harder in Finland to impress you, Allan; only you wouldn’t even hear about it, because you don’t actually know any personally, and you only get your info from Hommaforuum and the media.

    And this is how you have become an expert on racism in Finland.

    Okay, you gave a list. It was from media stories, and I said that they were not counted as ‘real’ experiences, for the same reason that you gave:

    OK, so media lies, fair enough.

    …though I would say they ‘distort’ rather than lie. But I’ll humour you anyway.

    The demands that you resent so much are:

    1) prayer accommodation – what’s wrong this? Why is this such a huge inconvenience? Many many people go to church on a Sunday in Finland. Do you object to that? Do you object to ‘freedom of religion’ in Finland? Or is it only ‘freedom of the Christian religion’?

    2) refused to work for women bosses. So, how many have refused, when, and where? I have known in my lifetime several men in the UK who were not happy about working for women bosses, because of chauvinism. Would you use that information to deny Brits entry into Finland?

    3) demanded segragation in public – you have to be specific here. Do mean separate bathing times at public pools for those Muslim women who them? When my kids were small here in Finland, I took them to baby bio swimming. It is only open to babies and their parents, i.e. special groups. Would you object to that? How is this any different?

    4) demanded special foods – diabetics demand special foods in restaurants, as do those that have gluten allergies. Do you object to those?

    5) demanded money, accommodation and transport – not sure what this refers to. Basically, immigrants get the same benefits as everyone else in Finland, based on their eligibility, plus some additional and necessary benefits geared to helping with integration. Do you object to Finns also getting these benefits? Do personally know of any immigrant that has demanded money and got it? If it’s that easy, I might just try it myself! 🙂

    So that was it. These were the demands that have upset you so much.

    So that what they teach you about immigrants in Hommaforuum? Time to get out and live and little, Allan. Go find yourself some immigrants and find out what life is really like as an immigrant. You might even blow away your ridiculous notions like DWI has. He’s studied in Finland, got work and pays taxes. He’s done none of those things that you accuse Somalis of doing. So, are you going to change your opinion, now that you have ‘discussed things’ with a bona fida Somalian?

  50. Mark

    Hannu

    Eyeopener please do prove what i said is wrong, your hostility just says im right.

    I can see why you might be tempted to reply to Eyeopener’s incoherent posts tonight (sorry Eyeopener, but it looks like you’ve been enjoying a bit of a tipple!), but you haven’t yet replied to my quite reasonable questions. Did you miss my post?

  51. Allan

    Yeah, Mark, sorry but I know and have worked witha load more Africans that you can imagine. And blacks as well, not as much in Finland but my last crew was pretty ethnical I was the only muzungu in the crew. So yes, I am “colorblind” as Enrique says. And I hate your kind of white apologetics. It is funny though I get excused being “nordic” going to drink with the crew as none of your countrymen will drink with the “boys”. You colonial trash, go educate some other natives.

  52. Mark

    Yeah, Mark, sorry but I know and have worked witha load more Africans that you can imagine.

    Yep, me too. But more to the point, you haven’t worked with any Somalians have you, and yet you still feel utterly qualified to talk about them, their culture here in Finland and their so-called ‘demands’.

    And I hate your kind of white apologetics.

    Yep, I know. You have everyone in a box and you love and hate based on the labels you put on the box. Enough said.

  53. Mark

    Hannu

    Yes, I found it. Wasn’t showing up earlier.

    1) i looked whole finland. I assume there is no huge difference.

    How do you mean, that you took the whole population of Finland and calculated 32% of the total population?

    Yes, but 32% of the actual sample size will give you more accurate figures. Like I said, that would make it only 15 cases based on a 90% non-report. That doesn’t really contradict. You cannot assume that the high incidence in the capital is reflected in other areas of Finland, especially if problems of large concentrations in particular areas have led to resentment in the local poor populations ‘competing’ for what are perceived as scarce resources (it’s a perception only, because Finns are paid according to their needs, not according to the number of foreigners living in an area).

    2) i looked amount of somalis in finland. Born in somalia or mother language somali. 3) page 16 and i looked amount of somalis in here in 2009 and assumed 32% are victims and remover 90% of victims. Without removal its 3739 and 1782 (language, born)

    Yes, okay, but see above. Also, you have to take into account possible survey bias. It might be that people who had experienced discrimination were more likely to respond to the survey. This alone would account for higher figures than predicted by police records. This is something the media should take into account when reporting, and don’t. But that is hardly the fault of immigrants, is it? As it is, it is generally accepted by researchers that non-reporting means that police figures are certainly an underestimate. I guess reporters take that as a significant fact and so feel justified in saying that figures are underestimates.

    4) it doesnt matter since police study searches all where is slightest possibility of racial motive. Includind what victim said.

    Fair enough. I do wonder if there is the threshold for the police recording a ‘reported’ crime. Do they record absolutely ALL crimes, or only those that where the individuals insist on having a crime recorded? It would be useful if the Police would record more information, on whether the victim perceives a racist element, whether the offender admits a racist element, whether independent witnesses report a racist element. I guess the problem before was that a racist element is so hard to prove, as well as establishing if it is the cause of the crime or a part of the ‘escalation’ of the assault, so it might be that racist crimes easily get ignored. The opposite extreme doesn’t help either though. Again, this is not the fault of immigrants. The police should make more effort to provide useful statistics.

    5) page 16 and for all if i understood correctly.

    Figures given on page 16 were from 75-90% for inperson crime. You steered on the outside of the range, so you were conservative, i.e. favourable to immigrants, assuming that more crimes were underreported, so no complaints from me.

    On the whole, I would say that your question about the discrepency in numbers is largely a result of trying to extrapolate the data in inconsistent ways. While it is reasonable that you attempt to corroborate or test the validity of the study, you make several serious mistakes in doing so. I think you are right in sensing a discrepency, but that discrepency, if proved by a larger Finland-wide sample would be explained by survey bias.

    The key thing is to lobby the police to produce more useful statistics.

  54. Allan

    Yeah Mark. But sorry, I got my envelope today so I wont be entertaining you muppets for a while. I wont waste the sat quota but sell it. Lets see what orgasms you get over the municipal elections.

  55. Hannu

    Mark i tried to do as favourable stats as possible so no one could caugh me to lying 🙂
    My whole reason was to show, what you also saw, survey bias.
    I dont blame immigrants, thats normal that ones who feel they are negleted answer surveys but i blame enrigue and others for taking that as face value and proof of something.
    And about hate crime study, lets say we fight over garden midged or something stupid like that. In questioning or while fight ill say “that fcng engelsman” (quess). Its hate crime in that study.
    So i can safely assume that actual racial biased crimes are way lover than in that study.

    And about registering, police dont have choise to “not register” if victim wants to file it. I can walk to police station and tell them that “huge teletubbies just installed listening device in my rectum” and they have to register it. Of course they would ask if im sure and it will go in “mappi Ö” but it shows in that study.

  56. Mark

    Hannu

    Yes, you did choose the outer margins, but then you missed other things. For example, you suggest the threshold for registering race crime might be too low, suggesting that if it’s fighting over a garden gnome, it’s can be considered fairly trivial. Well, it would be true, if that were the case. But until we have more detailed reporting from the police, we just don’t know, and it is a legal requirement that we ere on the side of caution. Not that the police seem to be interested in producing more useful statistics. That in itself is a bit worrying. It is not right that we cannot properly assess racist crime or even differentiate between racist crime and crime with a racist element. I’m really surprised about this, because I know how advanced Finland is in terms of statistical reporting and data registers. It really is one of the leading countries in the world.

  57. eyeopener

    Hurray. Allan got his enveloppe to go to the Malvinas. Thanks God at least this crap-guy is gone for a while. Or did you get a ticket for the joint, Allan?? Not a bad place for you. Enjoy your time!!

  58. eyeopener

    Boeh Hannu. Just a slimy answer because you have no response to critical questions. Well you have given yourself an excellent proof of ignorance.

    Keep up your foolishness!! Or should I say follicleness?? Something to do with your balls or better the failure of them!!

    Come up with something original can you?

  59. eyeopener

    Oh before I forget Hannu.

    Reading competences = 0. Fail your elementary schooling tests isn’t it?? You should demonstrate this lack so clearly. But fools always do!!

    Just go back to basics!! That’s your level. Bye

  60. Hannu

    Mark. It is true, read that raport in http://yhdenvertaisuus-fi-bin.directo.fi/@Bin/2b6a95739a7999b2d1dcdf59d2253b77/1328636306/application/pdf/184354/Viharikostutkimus2010.pdf
    There is already possibility to “mark” crime as racists but that didnt give “enough” racist crimes so they do quess from text that there could be racism. in 2010 42% of cases who are classified by study as racist was actually marked as racist by police. And by fact i know that atleast one police district mark any crime where minority is victim as racist.
    “in this study case is classified as racist if there is “demeaning language” in some part of case or police, victim or anyone related to case think it is” page 45

  61. Mark

    Hannu

    In the report, the Police suggest the changes in recording procedures were to make the reporting of hate crime more comprehensive. The changes were partly to reflect the different kinds of hate crime, based on race, religion and sexual orientation.

    in 2010 42% of cases who are classified by study as racist was actually marked as racist by police. And by fact i know that atleast one police district mark any crime where minority is victim as racist.

    What do you mean by any crime, because most of these crimes are assaults according to the police report. If it was theft or something and it was reported as ‘racist’, then I could understand. But assaults generally require a motive. As most of these assaults are also between strangers, involve a member of the immigrant community being attacked by a member of the majority population in public places, near restaurants, then one assumes there cannot be that many motives for such a crime. Finland is not a particular aggressive place, which means these kinds of assaults certainly stand out.

    What is the meaning of this 42%, I don’t understand what you are saying with this.

    You should lobby the police for more reliable statistics. Oh, and condemn racism in plain and simple terms, in case people accidentally think that you are trying to cover up racist crime in Finland. I take it you do condemn racism?

  62. Hannu

    I think almost everyone should be free to be withouth fear of violence but with current definition of racism i cant condemn it, everything is racism.

    Lets look motive of bar fights, i can say with my experience that its almost always started by something, maybe idiotic, and with my experience how “cultural enrichers” behave im suprised that there is no more. And no it has nothing to do with skin colour but behaviour, you can of course argue that beating is not good way to teach but thats same for everyone.

    Lets say they have different way to see woman and normal behaviour.

    Last fight where i can say for sure race had anything to do was ethinicity X man getting his ass kicked because he thought he can order what ethicity X woman can do and tried force his “cultural ways”. I understand that in some cultures womans cant interact with heathens but that will cause pain in finland.

    Meaning of 42% is that 42% of cases this study thinks is racism are flagged as racism by police and i know by fact that atleast one police district flags ALL and by all i mean ALL cases where other is “enrichment” as one. So we can assume that way under half of this study are actually racist.

    Like tabloid yell for break ins for russians apartments, it went away with small news with “caught and nothing to do with victims being russians”. I have no doubt that all of those break ins are used as proof of racism in next study.

  63. Mark

    Hannu

    I think almost everyone should be free to be withouth fear of violence but with current definition of racism i cant condemn it, everything is racism.

    I think everyone should be free of fear of discrimination too. Do you realise that when you live in fear, you get a little paranoid too. It’s clear that some accusations of racism are paranoia, but if you deny the reason for that paranoia and close your eyes to the very real racism that does exist, then what can I say? It’s easy to blame the foreigners for being paranoid, and to see it as them somehow taking advantage, but does that really add up?

    You know, it’s a bit like that argument that people are gay by choice, and then gays argue, yes, because who would choose to be bullied, attacked, shamed, mocked and generally denied even basic rights? I mean, it’s such a fun experience, why isn’t everyone choosing it? The same applies to racism – is it really so much ‘fun’ to claim everything is racism as soon as ‘someone criticizes you’. Nope, it’s not fun at all, because these people will first off not believe you. You think immigrants don’t realise that the first response to a claim of racism is denial?

    So many people who defend Finland do so on the basis only of media experience. Just like you Hannu, refering to tabloids yelling racism. Your gut feeling is that most Finns are good people, who are not racist. So, what is this media shit? And then the story turns out to be false, and you imagine that that it, it’s all just made up. Racism is very hard to prove. Racists almost never come and say, I don’t like you because you are black, or oriental looking, or dark, or Arab. But it’s as evident in what they don’t do as much as in what they do. It’s the lack of friendliness, the staring etc. That’s just strangers on the street. But it’s in the job market place that it has the biggest effect. Did you know Hannu that the no.1 reason employers in Finland give for NOT hiring someone of obvious foreign background – because they are perceived not to fit in with the workforce. Do you see that that is racist, Hannu? Do you also see that the person that has commits that racist act also doesn’t see their racism? It seems perfectly logical – a boss has to find the person that will do the job and fit in with the workforce; it might be personality, you don’t want someone who’s cold and unfriendly, or it could be race, because you know that the others are negative about immigrants, and so they ‘won’t fit in’. Seems perfectly reasonable and yet it’s one of the the most damaging kind of racism. No-one is ‘hating blacks’, when this happens. In fact, the perception that it is not ‘real racism’ is what leads so many managers to openly admit it as the reason they might have refused a candidate a job.

    Most racism is not hate. It’s a lack of willingness to see how various prejudices and negative stereotypes are undermining the basic rights of immigrants. And if that wasn’t enough, there is just enough of a sprinkling in Finnish society of out and out hatred for foreigners to mean provide the icing on the cake – a genuine and real sense of physical threat, to go with all the other kinds of prejudice.

    This is what you defend Hannu.

  64. Hannu

    Did you know that if bus doesnt stop its racism (you didnt know you have to signal it to stop). People looking at you or not looking at you is racism. People speaking at you or not speaking at you is racism. People asking where you are from is racism (im victim too then). Kid who dont like spicy food or dares to notice that people who eats spicy food smells different are racists. People wanting to do their schoolwork in their native language what is native language of that country are racist. People daring to say that you should stop noise in your apartment are racist. In end everything is racism. Enrique himself defines racism “if someone somewhere think its racism then it is”
    All of these examples are from news or studies, not invented.
    This is what im against.

    You also seem to mix needed skills with racism, in most places fluent finnish is needed… I wouldnt want to work with one who cant understand what im talking about and i dont want to change work language (to me its kemijärvi dialect) to english what would cause more, unnecessary, stress to me. I wouldnt mind if one who is hired without fluent finnish is real genious and his brilliance and experience alone would help my workplace to shine and prosper, then its small price. But in normal guys, please no

  65. justicedemon

    Hannu

    Your examples of bogus racism are urban myths cultivated by the PerusNazis, but how do you feel about cases where the bus doesn’t stop even though you did signal it to stop? My guess is that you would scrabble about for some other excuse. Unless, of course, you were the passenger and the bus driver was a Somali, n’est-ce pas?

    Anyway, you just keep thinking in the same old way until the skilled labour shortage leads to outsourcing of your job to an English-speaking environment. Then someone can apply the same criterion to your English, but be warned: half the time here we can only guess at what you are trying to say. Why should we even bother? No reason. But we have learned to be tolerant enough to give you the learning opportunity.

    You still need to acquire that tolerance. If you can’t, then you will find yourself working in a continually diminishing labour market.

  66. eyeopener

    Oh my gosh Hannu. You tell fairy tales. No, you tell non-sense. Assumptions that you never ever can proof. And you bring them as “proven facts”. What’s your educational level?? Primary school. Please don’t offend kids because they are wiser than you are.

    Crawl back in your slimy hole!!

  67. Hannu

    Justicedemon why i then red those examples from studies or news? I actually do read original source.
    Did you know that people do “racist moves” but study didnt tell what those are, i think those are like magic moves of taika jim.
    Actual studies or actual opinions, nothing invented.

  68. Mark

    Hannu

    Try to open-minded about this. You know, not fixed answers, everything either yes or no, and some kind of final judgement, yes, this is always racism – no, this is never racism.

    – Did you know that if bus doesnt stop its racism (you didnt know you have to signal it to stop).

    If you just stood at the bus-stop and someone has just called you a nigger and told you that you should go home, and then the bus comes and doesn’t stop, you might be forgiven for thinking it’s racism too. People get scared, and when bad things happen, it reinforces the view of racism and paranoia about racism. But paranoia doesn’t grow out of nothing. That’s the point you should be open to. That doesn’t mean you have to accept this was racism, but just understand that it’s not so unusual that someone in this situation would think it was, especially if they are experiencing a lot of other very obvious racism.

    – People looking at you or not looking at you is racism.

    Hannu, where and how often people look at you is absolutely a marker of social distance, of relationships. Is it subjective? Yes. Does that mean that racism cannot be expressed through staring, or not looking? No, of course it can. Is it difficult to determine what people’s ‘looks’ really mean? Yes. Do some Finns look with almost open disgust and hostility at foreigners? Yes, some do. So, you just have to be open to the idea of this. It doesn’t mean that you have to accept that every time someone looked at an immigrant funny, it was racism. Just that it is possible. You see, one of the key factors nowadays is the ‘exclusion’ of immigrants, where Finns just ignore or don’t talk to immigrants, in a way that they would normally if it were a Finn. That doesn’t mean they are racist, but it can mean that racial tensions can affect their behaviour in negative ways that only encourage further tensions. Looking for blame in this is really rather pointless. You can recognise where we all have a responsibility to reach out in those situations where it is normal to do so. Or does that seem to namby pamby to you?

    – People speaking at you or not speaking at you is racism.

    Same as above.

    People asking where you are from is racism (im victim too then).
    It depends. Immigrants want to be treated as people, not as representatives of their country or their race. It’s all too easy to think that you are being polite asking where they are from, but in truth, it can reinforce a sense of distance, sometimes deliberately. Sometimes, asking where someone is from is another way of exclaiming, ‘yikes, you are different’. I’ve heard people ask other people, ‘so where are you from’ with such a tone of voice that you would almost think the person they are talking too is from Mars. Maybe that’s nervousness, but the tone can be quite hostile and reveal very clearly that the person is trying to keep distance. Maybe this is too much psychology for you? It’s not unusual though. It’s just human stuff.

    – Kid who dont like spicy food or dares to notice that people who eats spicy food smells different are racists.

    Yeah, poor kid! Look, again, it’s about drawing attention to the difference in a way that appears disparaging. I mean, if the ‘they smell different’ is said with a tone of ‘ughh, what’s that horrible smell’, when clearly directed at an immigrant with absolutely no acknowledgement that that might be humiliating, then I would say that is very rude, abusive, and quite likely racist. I remember on an internal flight in the US once, after I had been travelling for something like 16 hours in a plane already, somebody in the seat behind me anouncing to the whole cabin almost, ‘what is that horrible smell, it’s somebody’s BO?’. I have to say, I felt mortified, humiliated and a touch angry that she had to say it the way she did. I was well aware of the fact that I was smelly. At that time I was quite terrified of flying and i did perspire rather a lot! I really wish it could have been different. Again, though Hannu, it doesn’t take a lot to just try to understand where the line is between normal curiosity about people who are different and actions that deliberately draw attention to that difference by way of disparagement.

    – People wanting to do their schoolwork in their native language what is native language of that country are racist.

    I’m not sure what this refers to.

    – People daring to say that you should stop noise in your apartment are racist.

    Not sure on the circumstances here. But some ethnicities are quite animated and loud in their speaking, and maybe in some apartment blocks, after 10.00, it would become disturbing to Finns. Also, to immigrants it might seem like a vendetta ‘we’re only talking’. Again, you don’t know about the context, but it might be that in that situation, racist comments have already been made in the stairwell, adn if that is followed by ‘complaints’ about noise, then it might be seen as an attempt to have the immigrant family removed from the building. That could very easily be seen as racist. This is NOT to say that it is. It is simply to say that it is not immediately obvious that it ISN’T. Open mind Hannu. You or I cannot generalise about this kind of thing.

    – In end everything is racism.

    Again, you seem to want only to lay blame on immigrants. That suggests you have a very biased way of looking at it. If I’m wrong about that, then correct me. I’d be happy to be wrong. Who is it really that has the rose-tinted spectacles ‘the immigrants’, who you imagine cry racism at every single encounter with Finns, or you interpreting all suggestions of racism as being false? Which is more likely? Maybe that is too hard a question for you to answer objectively.

    – Enrique himself defines racism “if someone somewhere think its racism then it is”

    You say you are against these kinds of racism, and yet it’s quite clear that in some circumstances these kind of racism could be false or the could be true. If you are only prepared to see them as false, i really really would question your judgment. Then I would have to ask myself why is your judgment so skewed? And then I would ask myself, is your attitude to particular immigrants negative and hateful? In view of the fact that you don’t wish to solve problems, you don’t wish to consider even realistic possibilties for racism, you don’t want to respect the human dignity of immigrants, I would have to conclude that you are in fact a racist. I haven’t made any judgment yet, Hannu. I’m engaging you in debate and telling you my thought processes. Let’s see.

    You didn’t respond to my reply to you about that incidence of racism that gave the other day. Why was that?

  69. justicedemon

    Hannu

    Your English expression collapses at certain times of day and on certain days of the week. Please try to write when you are sober.

    The point about a PerusNazi urban myth is that it is specifically designed to play on irrational fears and to be more noticeably confirmed than falsified in common experience. Much the same as fear of the dark, or a claim that the phone always rings when you are in the bath, or that it is always set to silent when you lose it, and that you always find it in the last place you look and never in the first place. Instead of relying on a gutter press that largely seeks to maximise sales by appealing to similar irrationality, you really need to read up on the psychology of prejudice. It will teach you things about yourself that everyone else can see. There is a good reason why you have been identified as a racist by several commentators on this blog.

    On the other hand, if you ever do come to see the error of your ways, then you will be so thoroughly embarrassed that we’ll never see you here again (e.g. your fly has been undone all these years and everyone has been able to see all along just how ridiculous were your claims of generous endowment: only now do you really understand why everyone was laughing). And that would be a shame, because we would miss the opportunity to refute all those racist urban myths that you are so fond of asserting.

  70. Hannu

    mark i didnt say its not racism, i said its not always racism.
    For example staring, thats finnish way and experienced in foreighn countries done by finns and even by me when i cloth or behave “not proper way”. Its racists
    And “buss didnt stop” was from stydy as example of racism. Looking and not looking is from study as example of racism. Speaking and not to speak is from study as example of racism.
    Spicy food example is from study as example of racism. It was recommenditation to find out if your kid is racist.
    I have no doubt that racism exist, i know it does but setting in it ways its now reallly undermines it, boy who cried wolfs i say.

    did you know that speaking english is racism and speaking finnish is rasicm.
    There is no way to how to be “non racist”.

  71. Mark

    Hannu

    mark i didnt say its not racism, i said its not always racism.

    We are on the same page then. And I do not say it’s always racism, either. Which ‘study’? It doesn’t sound like a scientific study that says ‘find out if your kid is a racist by asking if he thinks foreigners smell of spicy food’. Sounds pretty odd, to be honest.

    did you know that speaking english is racism and speaking finnish is rasicm.
    There is no way to how to be “non racist”.

    You sound depressed. But really, it’s not that bad.

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