Can Finland deal with the challenge of immigration?

by , under All categories, Enrique

Some claim that Finland is at an important juncture concerning immigration and its role in our society. There are already clear signs that the Finns want to deal with this challenge in a civil manner without the usual dose of  fear-mongering and nationalistic bravado.

How can I make such a claim? Because Finns from all walks of life want to make immigration work.

Even if the anti-immigration True Finns win a few percentage points in the next election, it will not be enough to turn them into a major party. Their xenophobic views of the world are only shared by a minority in this country.

One of the most interesting matters worth pointing out  is that for the first time in our history we are debating and challenging  racism openly. By debating this social ill we are also giving the thumbs down to a minority of Finns that want to take the country down the same questionable path like Denmark and the Netherlands.

Those that are not buying the anti-immigration rhetoric are giving the following message: Finland is independent and self-reliant to deal with immigration in positive and effective ways.

The biggest losers in the next elections will be those that use immigration as a scapegoat for all of our woes and opportunistic tool to win over votes. Even if a few get into parliament, there will never be enough of them to have a simple majority never mind two-thirds majority in the Eduskunta (Parliament).

Finns are pretty intelligent and have learned how to survive during trying times before. Spreading hatred and revenge as a justification to attack another country or group never worked, even if some want to take us down that path again.

  1. The reality of immigration

    Crime and Immigration are related (Fact)
    Immigration does not bring any financial benefits (Fact)
    Cheap Labour from abroad does threaten the employment of workers who are unskilled (Fact)
    Because of High birth rates for immigrants the indigenous population become ethnically cleansed (Fact)
    Those who support a multi cultural society blame the failure of immigrants on “White Racism” (Fact)
    60 % Per cent of Finns want tighter immigration controls (Fact)
    Other Political parties in Finland are talking about the immigration issue a issue which they once said they would not talk about (Fact)
    Immigration is set to become one if not “The” issue of next years election (Fact)
    If the True Finns are to become the fourth party in Finland and Kokoomus the first they will naturally ask from support from political parties who lean to the right and by asking support from the true Finns the True Finns will ask ask for certain demands one of which will be ” Tighter Immigration controls” (Fact)

  2. Sunatic

    It’s a pity that the xenophobic minority manages to be so loud, because they give a totally incorrect picture of what Finns really think. Even to Finns themselves. No doubt many weak-willed ones who don’t like to make waves choose the side of xenophobes simply because they think anti-immigrants are actually some sort of majority. Picking the side of the “winners”, they think. The openly xenophobic political parties know this and do their damnedest to make themselves look big and powerful.

    • Enrique

      –The openly xenophobic political parties know this and do their damnedest to make themselves look big and powerful.

      I personally think that their message is so crude and undemocratic that that is the reason why they make waves. No sensible person in this country speaks of other people in such a tone. I am also happy that there are many Finns who are shocked by this type of behavior. Why? Because it is totally against who we are as a people.

    • Enrique

      –The openly xenophobic political parties know this and do their damnedest to make themselves look big and powerful.

      In English we say a storm in a tea cup.

  3. The reality of immigration

    Calling people “Weak willed” because they chose to vote parties who you class as “Xenophobes” is the reason why you can not stop people voting for theses parties.
    Your attitude to their intelligence is insulting
    (the arrogance of Liberal thoughts and a higher Education )
    that they quickly realise that you only see them as pawns in your ideological game
    A game I am afraid you have seem to lost across Europe)..
    Pro Multiculturalism “Nil Points”..

  4. The reality of immigration

    I lived in a heavy multi cultural city and meet people from a immigrant background who I liked better than people who where from my own race.
    I have also experienced the benefits of multiculturalism but also have experience the negatives of multiculturalism which have more a effect than the benefits
    You may reject this comment because you have narrow-minded view of what and who a person you rejects multiculturalism is.
    Your Liberal way of thinking and your possible higher education has made you become so pious than even in your state of Ideological disillusion you still are of the thought that you still have more a grip of reality than those you don’t share the same view or don’t have an education of the same higher level as you.
    But please carry on! your trying to stop something and your looking in all the wrong places for it.
    Whilst “Racists” like me who live in a reality do or best to avoided the mistake which countries across
    Europe have now openly said they have made

  5. Hannu

    “Their xenophobic views of the world are only shared by a minority in this country.”

    Source? All polls i have red dont look like that but maybe you have info i have missed or is that your dream?

    • Enrique

      –Source? All polls i have red dont look like that but maybe you have info i have missed or is that your dream?

      Nah, Hannu, you are a minority. How many True Finns, Muutos 2011 MPs are there? Five? I wouldn’t call that even a large minority taking into account that there are 200 members in the Eduskunta.

  6. Hannu

    “Nah, Hannu, you are a minority.”

    If you call 59% a minority.

    “Kaikista vastaajista 59% pitää Suomen maahanmuuttopolitiikkaa joko hieman (39%) tai aivan (20%) liian löyhänä. Sopivana sitä pitää 27% vastanneista. Yhteensä 14% pitää politiikkaa joko hieman (11%) tai aivan (3%) liian tiukkana.”

    Or 77% or 86% or 56% etc depending what question you look at.

    http://cms.hommaforum.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=222:tutkimus-suomalaisten-mielipiteet-maahanmuuttopolitiikasta-3132010&catid=3:tapahtumia&Itemid=11

    • Enrique

      –Or 77% or 86% or 56% etc depending what question you look at.

      The questions in these polls are loaded. What people tell a poll is one thing and what they do in reality is another. So, by your definition, Muutos 2011 and the True Finns should become a big party in Finland like Kokoomus, SDP and the Center. Dream on, Hannu.

  7. The reality of immigration

    Considering that Muttos 2011 have only become a party this year and have not been able to stand for a election yet explains why they don’t have any members in Eduskunta.
    And at the last election “Immigration” was not a issue which it has now become,but during the last election it became one which we all could see from the successful results that the True Finns gained.
    How are you to explain or spin the polls that show that Finns from “all walks of life’s” are rejecting the idea of a multi cultural society within their borders.
    If you hoped are thought that immigration would never become a issue in Finland you should give up the ghost, because away from this naive website you would become just a embarrassment like Astrid Thors who and lets face it has hardly made a name for herself in a positive way in Finnish politics. and I don’t think there’s one politician that’s bringing other politicians together in joining together to give another politician the boot.
    Can you tell the way the wind is blowing? and I hope Its not in the same direction as you and me as I don’t want to smell what’s coming from you

    • Enrique

      –And at the last election “Immigration” was not a issue which it has now become,but during the last election it became one which we all could see from the successful results that the True Finns gained.

      Polls are polls and what people do in reality is a totally different story, full stop. And, by the way, a lot of people from other countries read this blog. Are these your opinions of other people and is that how you behave and act in real life?

  8. xyz

    Immigration does not bring any financial benefits
    -If this person has know how then it brings financial benefits

    Cheap Labor from abroad does threaten the employment of workers who are unskilled
    -You could also say that companies exploit workers from abroad. Plus why should I hire unskilled people if there are skilled people available?

    Because of High birth rates for immigrants the indigenous population become ethnically cleansed
    -No comment on this 🙂

    Those who support a multi cultural society blame the failure of immigrants on “White Racism”
    -Failure of immigrants…that’s cool. 250 job applications in 4 years and still no proper job offer in Finland. Here in Ireland I get every week a call from a recruiter.

    Immigration is set to become one if not “The” issue of next years election
    -Yeah, that’s “The” big issue. Better get the economy working than wasting your time about a few immigrants. Which skilled person wants to stay there if there are no jobs? Only those who have family there I suppose.

    60 % Per cent of Finns want tighter immigration controls
    -Ok they tighten immigration. What happens then? Magically new jobs will pop up everywhere?

    I lived in a heavy multi cultural city and meet people from a immigrant background who I liked better than people who where from my own race.
    -So what problem do you have then with them if you like them even more?

  9. The reality of immigration

    Finland recently said that Employers would have to look within Finland before offering the job aboard shows there a tendency for employers to employ people from aboard this is not just about low wage is also about giving people short term contracts and then not renewing them there fore there is not the issue of Sickness leave holidays .
    Unlike a Finnish person who would demand a long term contract and therefore more perks
    There is the argument that we need immigration to drive buses work in Hospitals etc etc but a decrees in population due to the rise of technology and less people needed in certain sectors of society you would think there would less people using the buses.
    So where is this need for Bus Drivers Hospital workers
    coming from (Immigration maybe)
    Unless it can export large amounts of goods and country will design its self around its population which means is can only create a certain amount of Jobs at once and with the leap of Technology many jobs become obsolete the paper industry in Finland which is one example

    A study in Britain showed that each person gains 62p
    per week from the benefits of economic immigration(So I can finally put down that down payment on that sports car I have always wanted)

    There is a problem that people from example the “Old EU states” cant get employment In Finland because the employment laws in those countries which rightly give
    a worker a right to demand what they are entitled
    for which is the same as my first comment.

    There was a article that 70% Per cent of economic migrants (not asylum seekers) from Somalia
    are unemployed and this was put down to racism the fact that Finnish workspaces are designed by people with a different culture and IQ maybe have something to do
    with this choice.

    “Employment” “Economic downturn” the liberal viewpoint on why people vote for Anti Immigration parties. Of course is one of the reasons why people vote for theses parties in we are starting in Helsinki to see
    the ethnic cleansing of Finnish people from many areas by people who most came to Finland claiming to be something they where not and within a short space of time will resemble a third world Ghetto which will become a no go area (Although I may be able to get some ethnic food which may help me understand the benefits of multi multiculturalism when I am attacked by a immigrant gang )

    The grooming of white girls by Muslim gangs in Britain gives me a negative view on a Multiracial society.
    No doubt you wont admit to this or if you did you like I said would wheel out “white racism” as the reason for this.
    Which one is it because I am very interested in how a mind like yours work

    It may also have something to do with people who are culturally and genetically different living together on a large scale may not be a good idea

    • Enrique

      Well, if you think living in a “multiracial” society is hell, you will have to move somewhere else. I really don’t know where. Maybe Greenland but there are Inuits there. What about in the Amazon Jungle? In a remote outpost in Central African Republic? There aren’t that many choices.

      Reality of Immigration, get real. Don’t feed your suspicions with myths and stereotypes. One of the most incredible ones you have made is that there are no economic benefits to a country from immigration. If you really believe that, why don’t you do a study and prove it.

  10. Tony Garcia

    “Even if the anti-immigration True Finns…”

    Really? humm… How can you say that? More accusations? I see…

    Where are they saying that they are anti-immigration? Is this, again, your highly sensitive physic abilities, or, just like our friend Ariel, you had access to their top-secret documents and are now fulfilling your duty and exposing the truth for us “the herd”.

    I talk to True-Finns members about 3 times a week and never heard anything anti-immigration. However they are indeed anti-social-reengineer Finland, that’s why immigrants like me support them, just like some did support the SD in Sweden.

    You say that Finns are pretty intelligent, I agree, but if you think so why you write such thing? Perhaps we, who read your blog, are not that intelligent then.

    • Enrique

      –Where are they saying that they are anti-immigration?

      There is no magic in what I am saying. Just read the Nuiva Vaalimanifesti and read some of the opinions those that signed it have about immigration. One of these is James Hirvisaari, Jussi Halla-aho and a few others. They are all True Finns.

  11. Tony Garcia

    ” What people tell a poll is one thing and what they do in reality is another.”

    Do you really want to keep this? Are you sure? You have been using polls here before to “prove” things, so I take that polls are valid only depending on who answered them?

    • Enrique

      Oh, you mean the poll about Somalis a long time ago. It is the only one I have referred to. I have criticized most of the polls on immigrants in Finland because I think the questions are dumb. One of these was if you want more immigrants to come to Finland. Anyone know what the answer will be: no. Even if countries have a few immigrants, some part of the population thinks there are too many of them.

  12. Tony Garcia

    “Just read the Nuiva Vaalimanifesti ”

    http://www.vaalimanifesti.fi/

    “Sen sijaan katsomme, että Suomen on oltava avoin sellaiselle maahanmuutolle, jonka vaikutukset ovat neutraalit tai myönteiset. Tämä merkitsee sitä, että maahanmuuttaja, joka sopeuttaa ja elättää itse itsensä, on tervetullut.”

    • Enrique

      Tony, the Nuiva Vaalimanifesti is a joke. If you have read it, you would agree.

  13. Tony Garcia

    “One of these was if you want more immigrants to come to Finland. Anyone know what the answer will be: no.”

    If you ask an unemployed Somali if he was discriminated, anyone know what the answer will be: yes.

  14. The reality of immigration

    Dont have to its all here it may apply to Britain but I think you can draw parallels with Finland

    http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/faq

    That brings the immigration brings economical benefit myth to end
    Shall we move onto the ethnic cleansing question
    (A personal favourite of mine)

    Or do you just want to call it a day I think by the tone of your typing you have taken enough reality for one day

    I Think I live in Greenland with the Inuits they share a similar genetic strain due to their evolution in a similar environment to me so we can both live in Harmony

    And I go looking for my match ball to celebrate my hat tick

  15. JusticeDemon

    The reality of immigration October 8, 2010 at 11:13 am

    If you hoped are thought that immigration would never become a issue in Finland you should give up the ghost

    Death threats now.

  16. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique seems to forget that the Inuits are the indigenous people of Greenland so having them living there does not represent multiculturalism of any sort. It’s like someone going to Nigeria and complaining that there are too many black people around and too multicultural as a result.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique seems to forget that the Inuits are the indigenous people of Greenland so having them living there does not represent multiculturalism of any sort.

      You misunderstood. I was just pointing out to “The reality of immigration” (are you related, Klay?) that he is going to have a hard time finding a place where there aren’t people from other cultures. But in Greenland, with its minute population, he could colonize a spot in the middle of Greenland.

  17. The reality of immigration

    Justice Demon:

    “Give up the ghost”
    Is a phrase that means stop thinking, believing or hoping for something that is never going to happen

    If want a phrase describing the people who support the ideas on this website let me know I got a some classics…

  18. xyz

    That brings the immigration brings economical benefit myth to end
    -Without Immigrants Ireland would not be an attractive place for companies to set up their EU headquater here since immigrants do have skills which the natives do not have.
    -There are many shops and smaller companies which profit from those EU headquaters and Immigrants since they are spending their money here.

    Shall we move onto the ethnic cleansing question
    -Sounds like a bunch of people living completely isolated in a box. I have a couple of Finnish friends who got to know other foreigners when they were traveling or via the Internet and they are now living together.

  19. JusticeDemon

    If that’s what you meant, then we can accept your error, but there can really be no question concerning how this expression has been used consistently in the English language since at least the time of the King James Bible (e.g. Genesis 25:8-9, Genesis 35:29, Acts 5:5-6, and most famously Mark 15:37 and Luke 23:46).

  20. Tony Garcia

    “One of the most incredible ones you have made is that there are no economic benefits to a country from immigration.”

    I think there is but I wonder what was Halonen trying to say here…

    http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Family+gives+up+resistance+-+Antonova+to+go+back+to+Russia/1135257406855

    “Halonen notes that the case is a lesson especially for those who are talking about the need for foreign labour. “People act as people. People grow old and get sick.”

    Perhaps the benefits are not as great as some believes?

  21. JusticeDemon

    Still on the subject of language, ethnic cleansing is a euphemism for an organised programme of genocide and/or forcible mass displacement of population groups. I wonder why you try to devalue this expression by trying to apply it to matters of individual and personal choice, such as migration for employment and international families. Is this deliberate hyperbole or merely another example of limited language skills?

  22. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, the Nuiva Vaalimanifesti is a joke. If you have read it, you would agree.”

    You used as prove of True-Finns being anti-immigration, no me. I said True-Finns are not anti-immigration and again you couldn’t disprove it.

  23. xyz

    Perhaps the benefits are not as great as some believes?
    -Tony, where do you see your benefit in Ireland as an Immigrant (not really sure if you really an immigrant in Ireland, especially if I observe the live traffic feed on Enriques blog, I am the only visitor from Ireland in the last hour)?

  24. The reality of immigration

    The previous government admitted that it used immigration to make Britain more multi cultural and for political reasons.
    By placing newly arrived Labour Party supporting immigrants in one area over a period of time high non European birth rates and sometimes force will displace the previous population and by doing so comes large “Vote Blocks” to the political party which organised this.
    And to me and many more this is seen as a example of the ethnic cleansing of a group of people.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

    • Enrique

      –The previous government admitted that it used immigration to make Britain more multi cultural and for political reasons.

      You have a funny way of using logic. So you believe that the Labor government in England brought more immigrants just to get votes? For your imformation the blacks came way before the last Labor government. Isn’t it interesting how millions of people can move from one part of the world to the other just to support a government? And they do this without even contributing anything to the economy… Did some 900,000 Finns leave in the previous century to the United States and Sweden just for political reasons? They too didn’t contribute an iota to the economy, right?

  25. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, here is what I wrote a while back on the Nuiva thing.”

    Yep I read it. First: you brought the Nuiva thing, not me. Second: still the same, it doesn’t prove True-Finns is anti-immigration. Sorry to say but that’s another baseless accusation.

  26. The reality of immigration

    The Conservative used the blacks as you cheaply call them as cheap labour.
    The Labour party who at that at that time where not infected by political correctness so the opposed it as a threat to workers but once theses workers started to vote Labour and political belief’s started to take over they changed their opinions.
    The Labour let economic migrants posing as asylum seekers into Britain when they should have refused them entry because they Britain was not the firt safe
    country they came to.
    This encouraged a tide of Economic migration using the asylum system into Britain.
    And they used this Tsunami as votes (You dont need a job to vote) not only to displace “Whites” but other immigrants who came to Britain in the 50s 60s who once voted Labour who now vote Conservative the party in power now.
    More and more immigrants who came or whose parents came to Britain in the first two decades of the post
    war are becoming more anti immigration as they are also effected by the Crime, Employment, Housing allocation, problems with immigration brings.

    Would I be right in thinking you have given yourself the title of “Mr Multiculturalism In Finland” and because of this you make the rules and no one questions you .
    Just asking because the tone of your typing the fact other people are saying you are not making sense when you reply to them seems to show you are under some
    pressure .
    One word of advice not only is my opinion of Multiculturalism right and yours is wrong, but I have had to defend my views on the street a blog doesn’t bring me a sense of danger, you should give up now before you make yourself a bigger Cunt than you already are..

    • Enrique

      –you should give up now before you make yourself a bigger Cunt than you already are..

      Is this how you debate Finland’s future? I am going to make it very clear to you: don’t throw low punches in this blog because you are out. You can disagree with us but don’t insult. Clear?

      –Mr Multiculturalism in Finland?

      Me? Don’t make me laugh. You were allowed to take part in these debates and now you are accusing me of censoring you. I am confused as many others are as well.

  27. The reality of immigration

    And before you ask why you are wrong .
    Danish peoples party, Progress Party (Norway),Front National,Party for Freedom (PVV), British National party,Vlaams Belangm,Lega Nord, Sweden democrats.
    On what issue connects theses parties? and the percent of votes theses party gain in elections on that issue
    shows its not all “Racist lies a voted by Racists” if you sill believe that your opinion of those voters and their IQ is absolutely scandalous.

    And next year will be proudly be able to invite the “True Finns” to that party and what an all night party that is going to be (Will they have strippers?)

  28. JusticeDemon

    The reality of immigration

    You are quite evidently misusing the expression ethnic cleansing, and your effort to explain this use only indicates more general shortcomings in your command of English.

    On the other hand, with no more than passing references to Finland you are exclusively discussing the United Kingdom experience of immigration, which is clearly a unique phenomenon of limited usefulness in explaining conditions in Finland or providing relevant guidance for policymaking in Finland. How much do you even know about the history of immigration and emigration in Finland or about current Finnish government policy and legislation? What specific laws would you change and how?

    Perhaps you could also explain how it came about that you were completely wiped out in Barking and Dagenham at the last UK general election. What happened to your massive support? Was it ethnically cleansed from the borough on polling day?

  29. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique you and I both agree that Finland as a country is doing very well and has topped various international rankings in recent years. All this was done with one of the lowest immigrant populations in Europe. Why can’t it continue? Please don’t use the ageing population as a reason as I and others have discredited that theory. Germany and Sweden are 2 of many countries with high immigrant populations who are worse off than Finland in that respect. High immigration hadn’t solved the ageing population for them so it wouldn’t for Finland.

    Two more questions. If Astrid Thors the Finnish immigration minister said tommorrow Finland’s borders are completely open for anyone in the world to come in and settle without any restrictions (like EU citizens) would you agree?

    Are there any problems in your mind (if any) from multiculturalism?

    • Enrique

      –All this was done with one of the lowest immigrant populations in Europe.

      How did the United States become the leader in so many fields with such a high immigrant population?

      I could also throw another question: Does Finland have one of the highest suicide rates because it has a low immigrant population? I don’t think these types of questions have any correlation. The issue is deeper and more complex.

      –If Astrid Thors the Finnish immigration minister said tommorrow Finland’s borders are completely open for anyone in the world to come in and settle without any restrictions (like EU citizens) would you agree?

      You are pulling my leg with this question.

      –Are there any problems in your mind (if any) from multiculturalism?

      Certainly there are. People as yourself argue that it does not bring a strong enough sense of community and nationhood. Some claim that it does not answer the problems of racism in society strongly enough.

      Firstly, I have never placed any political or academic labels on myself. For me, multiculturalism (if you so want to call it) or interculturalism, or simply respecting the laws of the land (Constitution and Equality Acts) is what the issue is all about. When Martin Luther King fought for black rights in the US did he ask for big changes in the law? Not really. His point was that the Constitution and the laws should be applied to blacks as well.

      Now I am going to ask you this question: Why don’t you want to give other minorities living in your country the same rights that you have? Some of these include the right to one’s culture and religion. That is a matter that has always baffled me: you ask others to accept watered down rights that you would never accept. Please explain this.

  30. The reality of immigration

    You seem to have written a blog article and you seem to have problems defending arguments then even when you are given evidence which proves you wrong (Newspaper article) you still wont admit or try to spin it. your typing is someone who cant defend there views.
    Saying people cant understand what I am saying is a typical response of someone who has got themselves in a corner.
    Which means you don’t have much experience of being put on the stop or by running the blog does give a certain degree of control of how how the issue will be connected.

    Writing a article where you describe any one who has a different political choice as you as Xenophobic or racist is a worse slur that I could ever throw at you
    Iam in this game so to speak because I want to be and you are also which means it will get ugly that’s the nature of theses things

    But I want you “now” to defend your argument that if a normal Finish person who exercises his or her right to vote for who they want and if they vote for the true Finns have to be called by people like you “Xenophobe”
    “Racist” and I want you reply not using the cheap juvenile slurs which I have just mentioned.

    • Enrique

      –But I want you “now” to defend your argument that if a normal Finish person who exercises his or her right to vote for who they want and if they vote for the true Finns have to be called by people like you “Xenophobe”“Racist” and I want you reply not using the cheap juvenile slurs which I have just mentioned.

      — What would you call people like James Hirvisaari? Halla-aho, among others?

  31. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘Perhaps you could also explain how it came about that you were completely wiped out in Barking and Dagenham at the last UK general election. What happened to your massive support? Was it ethnically cleansed from the borough on polling day?’

    JusticeDemon I don’t know where you are going with this argument. First of all Barking and Dagenham are two separate bordering constituencies and in both the BNP scored very high for themselves compared to other areas, even beating the Liberal Democrats who make up part of the government and cabinet offices now. So for them it was a victory.

    Anyone with any sense knows that the BNP are a joke party and will never reach the organisation and sophistication as some of the Europe’s other right wing parties such as the Danish People’s Party or National Front Party.

  32. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Barking and Dagenham is a London borough. The borough council elections were held on the same day as the parliamentary elections. The BNP were comprehensively routed on that day, losing all of their seats on the council. The BNP leader was also very soundly beaten in the Barking parliamentary constituency. The turnout for the general election in that constituency was 53 per cent higher than in 2005. However the BNP vote increased by just under 35 per cent, despite the fact that as party leader the candidate in 2010 was much better known than the candidate in 2005. In terms of its share of the vote, the BNP was down by 2.1 percentage points in the parliamentary election.

    My point is that in the run-up to that election we heard all of the same nonsense about some alleged massive groundswell of support for the fascists because people are waking up to the reality of immigration.

    Ricky is correct – the electorate is smarter than that, particularly in Finland where standards of general public education are higher.

    • Enrique

      JusticeDemon, another point about what Hannu said about the “majority of Finns” being against immigration because the polls say so. Hannu, and I suspect many of these small parties like the True Finns and Muutos 2011, think that just because a party may show its xenophobic side it autuomatically means that the majority will vote for them as the polls suggest. I would say that sensible Finns who might have question marks about immigration know that the True Finns are a populist party that can implode at any time without warning because it is made up of so many politically unstable elements. They, if anyone, have the least idea of putting forth an effective immigration policy.

  33. The reality of immigration

    The BNP gained support in a local elections Barking at this time the labour programme of using immigration for political reasons was not young but still early in its creation.
    What happened in Barking was a full result of that agenda from the time of local elections to the the election this year. Theses policies can be stopped but only on a parliamentary level only a local council which has a enough councillors from one party or enough support from other parties on a issue can hold their “MP to ranmson” so to speak.
    Since Finland’s independence the largest immigration into Finland was from Finland itself due to the areas occupied by the Russian and the leaving of the Finnish population. This is event that cities like Helsinki expansed it size during the 60s
    Finland has has experience of Asylum if I am right it was from Chile and then in the late 80s early 90s Vietnamese came to Finland. In the early to mid 90s what with the political situation in the former Yugoslavia and the the right of Ethnic Finns in Russia to return to Finland and at the same time using the asylum system for economic reason increased immigration into Finland the most it has been since the End of the war, Finland’s entry into the EU and the Entry of New Euro states has also increased immigration in to Finland and since Sweden has tighten its liberal asylum laws over the last two years Finland has experienced the knock on effect of this which had led Finland to also tighten its asylum laws and this knock on effect it why immigration has now become a issue in Finland,
    What would my immigration laws be. Well first I would remove myself from the grip of the EU by doing so you can return your borders to Full control and also you can remove your self from the EU Human Rights laws which are abused by people especially when it comes to the issue of asylum, Finland should have human rights law but not when they become more abused than used for the reason they where created so they need to have more restricted in their use.
    When it comes to asylum I would remove asylum from the Finnish law, if this for some reason was not possible
    I would follow the Asylum laws which says that anyone who wanting to claim asylum has to claim asylum in the first safe country they reach I would also remove the resdiance permit from the Asylum system I would be a straight Asylum or No Asylum nothing else, I would also remove money to asylum seekers I would provide all services Food, Clothing but there would be no Money to the asylum seekers to buy these things there self. I would only give Family reunification to an asylum seekers spouse and their children.
    I would also stating to return asylum seekers to there homelands if not to their homelands I would look for a safe country outside of the EU which would take theses asylum seekers in a exchange Finland would provide the teaching of skills or Exchange of products (Not money)

    Any one marrying someone outside of the EU would have to register their marriage and spend a whole two years outside of the EU and can only come to Finland after theses two years and only the non Finnish spouse has employment and apartment or house not provided by the state (Theses laws would stop marriages of conveniences)

    I would allow people to come to study in Finland but would charge them no matter where they are from , If If we need to talent spot some of these people we would offer them employment. But the deal would be if they come from a improvised nation they would have to spend a year in their country and would have to prove that the skills they learnt in Finland are being used to their country to make there country a better country, but also they would need to understand that the job in Finland may not be available due to various factors.

    The issue of worked based immigration is a difficult subject for everyone as that we live in a society where changes due to Technology for example are changing the society we live in soon for example the only time a postman would come to your house is with a parcel and not a letter.
    There is a problem with unskilled or low skilled labour from east European putting many people out of work but we are also seeing signs of people from outside the EU putting people from the new EU states out of work countries have now applied laws to reduce this and to project but because of EU Laws many can not carry the weight that they should.
    Before we discuses the issue of work imagination we need to look at society in general the Belief that a decreasing population is somewhat wrong I find hard to swallow in a over populated world which we live in we should be decreasing our population.
    The question of who looks after the old always comes into play and then this always used to promote immigration but if we are to get people who would look after the old then what happens when they are old.
    There has a been issue over the last week or so about the length of conscription in Finland (well there is your answer as well a military training conscription should be also used on a more civic duty level
    And we need to get to understand that if I am right technology does not create as many jobs as it removes.
    The number of visitors to Libraries in Finland has dropped over the last decade it will wont be long that the issue of closer will be thought of which of course will lead to my Employment but can these people be found employment in the field that made them unemployed in the First place.

    • Enrique

      –When it comes to asylum I would remove asylum from the Finnish law,

      Finland did this before. Remember Soviet refugees who were forced to return to the USSR even after they sought asylum? During most of the cold war Finland had a very questionable asylum policy. Do you want to go back to that period?

      –The question of who looks after the old always comes into play and then this always used to promote immigration but if we are to get people who would look after the old then what happens when they are old.

      Then you bring more immigrants. What happens today when the old retire. Who pays for their retirement?

  34. The reality of immigration

    Again spinning an answer on me ..

    I said people who vote not stand. A normal Finnish man who has a wife two kids works in a Factory car house payments the kind of people of man who is fed up with the “BIG THREE” of Finnish politics who feel like there out of touch with his concerns and want something different so he chose the True Finns is he Xenophobes
    Its a straight answers YES or NO

    Lets face facts here! I know you want to say yes but I wont insult your intelligence because I know if you openly say yes any chance you would have of trying to stop the True Finns by getting the people who are thinking about voting for them not to, will be over before it even starts
    Anti Racist parties across western Europe tried to defeat the parties of Far Right/Populist by using the “Racist” “Nazi Tags” and also by not willing to discusses and challenge the views of theses parties(Sweden as a example) .
    Although they claim to have the reality is not one of theses groups has had any any effect in stopping theses parties.
    And its oblivious why…

    • Enrique

      –A normal Finnish man who has a wife two kids works in a Factory car house payments the kind of people of man who is fed up with the “BIG THREE” of Finnish politics who feel like there out of touch with his concerns and want something different so he chose the True Finns is he Xenophobes
      Its a straight answers YES or NO

      I don’t mean to be rude: But are you out of touch from mainstream Finnish politics?

  35. The reality of immigration

    But you can class them as genuine “Refugees” Finland
    was the first country to many of them and of course with Finnish History there was that also that connection.
    But Finland was in a Difficult position during the cold war its location to other European countries many members of NATO and by being next Russia, if Finland had become a haven for Russian exiles during the Height of the cold war it could been seen as a excuse for Russia to test the reactions of NATO by making aggressive actions Finland and to see the reactions of NATO.
    Finland had to do what was best for itself .

    But things have changed we are seeing many people fleeing domestic problems who happened it seems by accident after crossing many safe countries finding them self claiming asylum in some of the most richest countries on the planet (Thats not asylum that economics)

  36. xyz

    A normal Finnish man who has a wife two kids works in a Factory car house payments the kind of people of man who is fed up with the “BIG THREE” of Finnish politics who feel like there out of touch with his concerns and want something different so he chose the True Finns is he Xenophobes
    -I would not vote at all if none of those parties represent my views.

  37. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘How did the United States become the leader in so many fields with such a high immigrant population?’

    Enrique the American population is made up nearly entirely of immigrants who can trace their roots to all over the world. Can you say the same for Finland? America is a ‘New World’ country where nearly everyone (98.8%) are not the indigenous people. Can you say the same for Finland? This is why I hate comparing immigration of ‘New World’ countries to European countries as their history and population dynamics are so different.

    Finland is doing well so why change anything and in that I mean why bring multiculturalism on a large scale? If something ain’t broke why fix it?

    You use the tactic of when somebody asks you a awkward question instead of answering it you deflect it with another question. I asked three simple questions and you only answered one. If immigration is the holy grail of humanity as you portray it to be then surely the more the merrier so I ask again:-

    If Astrid Thors the Finnish immigration minister said tommorrow Finland’s borders are completely open for anyone in the world to come in and settle without any restrictions (like EU citizens) would you agree?

    -‘Now I am going to ask you this question: Why don’t you want to give other minorities living in your country the same rights that you have? Some of these include the right to one’s culture and religion.’

    Enrique you are forgetting I am an immigrant right now, even though I could gain a passport tommorrow and pretend to be a local like you do claiming to be a Finn. I don’t want to reduce anyone’s rights. People can do what they want but they should understand the consequences of their choices. What I’m strongly against is the active promotion of a different culture and language in place of the dominant culture and language by the government or council. So that means education, useage of public buildings, and policies. For example official papers translated in every language of the world, then they wonder why the dominant language is never learnt. In the UK you could take a driving test in Somalian if you wanted. What use is that if the driver can’t even read or understand road signs, it’s dangerous.

    -‘Klay_Immigrant
    1
    Approve’

    Don’t understand this Enrique, please explain.

    JusticeDemon if you had said the UK local elections instead of the UK general elections then wouldn’t have been any confusion with constituencies and boroughs. In the general elections the BNP vote increased by 6.8% in the Dagenham constituency, no other party increased more than 0.9%. So it was a victory for the BNP there.

    • Enrique

      –Enrique the American population is made up nearly entirely of immigrants who can trace their roots to all over the world. Can you say the same for Finland?

      So what are you implying about Europe that each nationality stayed put in their region, never moved and never mixed? Please tell me how long that went on. Was it for 10,000 years? 1,000 years, maybe? What is the base langauge of English, German, Swedish, Flemish and a few others? Sanskrit? Where does Sanskrit come from? What about Finnish, Hungarian, Estonian and Saami? Fenno-Ugric? Is that a group that lived in Europe originally? So, by your defintion, the Spanish, Italians and Portuguese would be one group that are REAL Europeans because their base language comes from Latin?
      There has been a lot of mixing going on in the past in Europe. That same mixing of cultures and people is still going on and will continue unless.

  38. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    How is the logic of that statistic consistent with the reasoning that convinces you that immigrants are overrepresented in crime statistics? The turnout increased by 53 per cent and the BNP vote by only 35 per cent. Are you arguing that the factors underlying the higher turnout affected BNP voters less than it affected voters who supported other parties?

    This would not be an outlandish claim. Fine weather on election day is a factor that traditionally increases voter turnout in the UK, but also favours the Labour Party more than the Conservatives. What factor in the higher turnout disadvantaged the BNP in May?

  39. Klay_Immigrant

    -‘How is the logic of that statistic consistent with the reasoning that convinces you that immigrants are overrepresented in crime statistics?’

    First of all I never mentioned anything about crime and elections so I don’t know how you have made this connection.

    -‘The turnout increased by 53 per cent and the BNP vote by only 35 per cent.’

    I don’t know where you getting this information from but it is plain simply wrong. I demand a source. In the last general election voter turnout increased by 13.2% and 6.6% in the Barking and Dagenham constituencies respectively.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/constituency/a11.stm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/constituency/b29.stm

    The fact that you believed a turnout can increase by more than half in a nationwide election shows a lack of common sense.

  40. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    Your reading comprehension is atrocious. I queried the consistency of your statistical methodology when discussing election results in the light of your previous remarks about crime. The least that we can require is that you apply the same statistical reasoning consistently.

    I think you will find that the following absolute figures are correct.

    Turnout in Barking parliamentary constituency:

    General Election 2005: 28,906
    General Election 2010: 44,343

    That looks like an increase of 53 per cent in turnout.

    BNP vote in Barking parliamentary constituency:

    General Election 2005 (Barnbrook): 4,916
    General Election 2010 (Griffin): 6,620

    That looks like an increase of just under 35 per cent in votes for the BNP.

    So I return to the original question. What general factor increasing voter turnout disproportionally favoured the other parties and disadvantaged the fascists?

  41. xyz

    Finnish contains borrowings from all stages of Indo-Iranian, that is from Pre- and Proto-Indo-Aryan (precursor of Old Indic ~ Sanskrit), from Pre- and Proto-Iranian, from Pre– and Proto- Balto-Slavic as well as Proto- and North(-East)ern Baltic, and last but not at all least from all stages of Pre- and Proto-Germanic development.
    http://tcoimom.suntuubi.com/?cat=10

  42. Klay_Immigrant

    Correct figures:-

    Turnout in Barking parliamentary constituency:

    General Election 2005: 40,055 not 28,906
    General Election 2010: 45,343 not 44,343

    An increase of 13.2 per cent in turnout.

    BNP vote in Barking parliamentary constituency:

    General Election 2005: 6,528 not 4,916
    General Election 2010: 6,620 correct well done!

    An increase of 1.4 per cent in votes for the BNP.

    I’m still waiting for your sources JusticeDemon showcasing your wrong figures. I provided mine in my last post which are from the official website of the BBC so I can safely say that they are reliable.

  43. The reality of immigration

    The BNP vote increased which represents the (White Voters)
    But the Labour vote increased (the immigrant vote) which is result the of the Labours social engineering project over the last decade
    The Media claimed the defeat of the BNP was because the rejection by the voters of their “Rascit views”
    By the vote percentages shows this is not correct
    Its was due to removing political opposition by demographic charge

  44. The reality of immigration

    Of course over thousand of years people change due to various factors but this change happens over a very period of time and from that time we develop a society based around who we are and how we think and or needs due our environment and of course we get influence from outside our borders but they don’t change the deep roots which a country founds itself on.
    But what we are seeing is when large amounts of people who are culturally different (Not just Non Whites the immigration issue is always seen as White – Non White which is not what it is) coming into a country and that amount of people who not either blend or into a population and with the tendency of people to live amongst people like them ( the bond of cultural identity) that area looses it identity and becomes something else and most people who state of mind once created that area now feel displaced because it not what they created .
    There is the argument that we all come from the same place of course its true to a degree ,you can not look at a European man and at Arab man and not see similar things , but the moment when we went our septate ways is so far back in time that we have become something else totally different to each other and it would be clutching at straws to say that as we are from the same place then we are all the same, that argument would not be used in a court because it would been seen as being far to thin in its argument.
    And of course over time we will change again that’s the way evaluation goes and even without immigration
    the people and society will change and will become totally different to what it is now. But this is now and for the moment I feel comfortable in living in the European model of society it was thought and created by a state of mind which I can connect with, and the fact I am a foreigner living in Finland who has taken a anti immigration line shows a deep respect for another country’s heritage and therefore mine and because of a natural kinship that’s comes from thousands of years of cultural connections.
    The reason why people can not stop the progress of Anti Immigration parties is because they are not going against a argument or a idea based around social conditions they are going against a feeling which comes from someone who values their identity and one thing you can not understand or stop is emotions.

  45. The reality of immigration

    Would I be right in thinking that you all agree we all live in a world of diverse cultures.

    But do you also agree that any country which takes a hard anti immigration line does not?

  46. The reality of immigration

    Would I be right in thinking that you all agree we all live in a world of diverse cultures and identities

    But do you also all agree that any country which takes a hard anti immigration line looses their right to their identity

    • Enrique

      –But do you also all agree that any country which takes a hard anti immigration line looses their right to their identity.

      Why do you think you will lose anything? Are you that uncertain about your identity? And what country is taking a hard anti-immigration stance? Finland?

  47. JusticeDemon

    The reality of immigration, October 9, 2010 at 4:37 am

    But the Labour vote increased (the immigrant vote) which is result the of the Labours social engineering project over the last decade

    The reality of immigration, October 9, 2010 at 5:27 am

    …the fact I am a foreigner living in Finland…

    Elikkä Suomessa asuvana ulkomaalaisena katsot, että UK:n labourpuolueen kannatuksen kasvu ko. vaaleissa (53.4 % v. 2005 vaalitulokseen verrattuna) johtui yksinomaan vaalien välillä Barking-alueeseen siirtyneiden maahanmuuttajien äänestyskäyttäytymisestä. Mihin tilastoihin tai tutkimukseen tämä väite perustuu?

  48. The reality of immigration

    “…the fact I am a foreigner living in Finland…”

    You will never or dont want to see it do you?

    It has become oblivious you are not prepender to challenge me on a sensible and intelligent level.
    This gives me a open platform on this issue at next years election. Well its your loss and but it is going to be my gain.

  49. Klay_Immigrant

    JusticeDemon thank you for falling into my trap. You have made a schoolboy error and have shown your statistical naivety.

    Between the general elections of 2005 and 2010 the constituency of Barking underwent a boundary change and was enlarged. So comparisions of 2005 and 2010 election results have to be taken with a pinch of salt hence the massive increase in voter turnout as there were much more eligible voters due to the boundary increase. Anyone with any knowledge of elections would have realised that an increase of 53% in voter turnout in a nationwide election is unheard of and highly unlikely if the number of eligible voters and area stayed the same.

    ‘Boundary review
    Following their review of parliamentary representation the Boundary Commission for England recommended that the wards of Alibon, Parsloes and Valence be transferred from the old Dagenham constituency to Barking, and that following a review of ward boundaries a small part of River ward be transferred from Barking to help form the new Dagenham and Rainham constituency.’

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barking_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Boundary_review

    ‘Boundary changes: Barking significantly increases in size under the new boundaries, gaining the wards of Alibon, Parsloes and Valence on the Becontree estate while losing only a small part of River ward.’

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/seat-profiles/barking

    In future please scrutinise data more carefully and don’t overlook crucial factors. Now are you the big enough man to apologise for your mistake?

    • Enrique

      Klay, I also am waiting for an answer: How long have the Europeans been in Europe? If they are “Europeans” why do they speak a langauge that came from India or from Central Russia? The Spaniards are the real Europeans, right. Latin is from modern Italy not from some faraway place. And while you are at it, are second generation immigrants Europeans?

  50. Klay_Immigrant

    Enrique you are getting deliberately silly. With this line of questioning you might as well say we are all Ethopians as humans originated from there some 160,000 years ago.

    I don’t think anyone let alone me can say exactly how long Europeans have been in Europe not even the so called experts.

    Non-Western second generation immigrants are Europeans in the sense of being citizens by having a passport, which in today’s climate isn’t too difficult to get. Five years residence is usually enough. But their anchestry, heritage, background, and ethnicity are certainly not European. So people can decide whether they are really Europeans or not.

    • Enrique

      Getting “silly”? Hmmm. What you are saying, in effect, is that since other that cultures live in Europe (and have done that for generations) are still not Europeans, or that a European acts and looks a certain way. That, as you know, is a bunch of boloney. Europe is a place of diverse cultures from all over the world. By thinking that it is not such a place and that people don’t have to conform to your view of society (which you will not find in any EU laws) is breathing life back into a monster called Former Yugoslavia.

  51. JusticeDemon

    Klay

    But that’s not the point, is it?

    The point is that out of a larger number of voters the BNP polled a smaller proportion in 2005 than in 2010. It does not matter whether those voters moved into the original constituency area or whether the constituency area was enlarged to include them.

    To judge the BNP election campaign a success, you would have to show that the BNP gained new voters. All of the indications are that it lost voters, both among the residents of the 2005 constituency and from the former BNP support in the three new wards.

    To gauge the impact of those three wards on the election, take a look at the local election results. These wards were formerly BNP strongholds, with the BNP holding six council seats out of a possible nine (two out of three in each ward) before the 2010 election. After the election they had none at all. This specific boundary change was one of the reasons why the BNP were talking up their chances of getting a parliamentary seat in Barking this year.

    Taken as a factor increasing the turnout, this boundary change should have favoured the BNP disproportionately.

    I thought you chemists were supposed to understand this kind of thing based on all of those worked examples about mixing solutions of varying strength. This is exactly the same thing. If you add a small volume of a more concentrated solution (three BNP stronghold wards) to a larger volume of a more dilute solution (the 2005 Barking constituency), then you expect the concentration of the resulting solution (the 2010 Barking constituency) to be higher than that of the original dilute solution. If it turns out to be lower, then you have somehow either lost some solute or you have gained some solvent from another source.

  52. JusticeDemon

    Corrigendum to first paragraph:

    The point is that out of a larger number of voters the BNP polled a smaller proportion in 2010 than in 2005.

  53. xyz

    And of course over time we will change again that’s the way evaluation goes and even without immigration
    the people and society will change and will become totally different to what it is now. But this is now and for the moment I feel comfortable…
    -Ah and who decides if it’s time for evolution again? You are funny…let’s take an evolution brake 🙂

  54. Klay_Immigrant

    Just because a culture, language, or item exists in Europe that doesn’t make it European. Toyota has a car making factory in Slovakia does that make it a Slovakian car? In large areas of Britain the predominant language is Hindi does that make it a European language? It’s all about where it originated from because that can only be one place but can be exported or moved to anywhere in the World.

    • Enrique

      –Just because a culture, language, or item exists in Europe that doesn’t make it European.

      I disagree. In the first place, people are not machines. Secondly this very matter that I am speaking of, cultural diviersity, IS who we are. The key to the latter is what the Dalai Lama quote states below: Each person has the right to choose whatever is most suitable, on the basis of a deep understanding of all others as brothers and sisters. Why should be accept your model of society, which, by the way, is something passe and not even forced by law?

      Implementing your model of exclusion and forced assimilation would reap havoc and destruction in Europe. We have seen it before, Klay. Enough is enough.

    • Enrique

      Did you ever think, Klay, that those cultures that offer the best pathways to integration for other groups have a better survival rate than those that don’t? This is why I think that the liberal spirit of England is something that would not permit the country to be run by a madman like happened in Nazi Germany or that a single party (Denmark and Netherlands) would call the xenophobic shots. So, Klay, you are lucky to live in England.

      Or would you like to live in tolerant France?

  55. Tony Garcia

    Some good news, at last…

    http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/10/increase_in_proposed_deportations_2047260.html

    “…an official of the Finnish Immigration Service who said that the threshold for police to endorse the deportation of a foreigner has become lower than before after last year’s shootings at the Sello shopping mall in Espoo.”

    “This year, three out of four deportation proposals were approved, up from three out of every five a year earlier. “

  56. JusticeDemon

    Tony, I think I understand Finnish immigration law quite well, but I can’t see what you are crowing about here, even from your own point of view. Why don’t you explain to us precisely what you think this news item is about. As you do so, please make it clear what is meant by “endorsing” and “approving” deportation.

    The orthodox view of this branch of public administration is that it is operating perfectly when the approval rate, including settled appeals, is 100 per cent. In other words, when the police only submit well merited proposals. Anything less than 100 per cent is a waste of government resources. This means that the “endorsement threshold” should match the deportation threshold established by Parliament and the courts. It should not be affected by events like the Shkupolli incident.

    My own view of this story is that it reveals a potentially costly exercise in buck passing for cosmetic purposes. The police do not want to be placed in the spotlight for not recommending deportation, even in cases where they ought to know that the recommendation will not be upheld. They would prefer to tell the press that they recommended deportation, but that this was blocked by FIS or by the courts.

    The police bureau and immigration service department (by various names) of the Interior Ministry have engaged in a running feud over inadequately substantiated deportation proposals ever since these functions were separated (in 1991, as I recall).

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