Anti-Immigrant: calling a spade a spade in Finland

by , under All categories, Enrique

The use of the term maahanmuuttokriittinen, or immigration critic, reveals what some journalists think about immigration to or in Finland. It can very well reveal that the journalist may hold the same opinions of anti-immigration groups.

The odd term immigration critic, which has been used to refer to groups such as Muutos 2011, True Finns and Hommaforum, has a basic message: keep Finland white. We don’t want people who are different from us.

Can we call a political group that openly insults immigrants through their ignorance and political opportunism “critical” of something? I don’t think so.

Better names for such groups could be populist, anti-immigration/xenophobic group,  or ultra-nationalistic. Since in Finland we haven’t seen many far-right wing groups until the early 1930s like the Lapua Movement, it will be interesting to see what their real colors are.

What would you call a party or movement that has the following agenda:

(1) Change the Constitution and shelve the Non-Discrimination Act;
(2) Treat different groups in society unequally;
(3) Ethnocentric and racist;
(4) Pass policy on minorities that would never be accepted by their group;
(5) Fear everyone that is different and make a big deal about it;
(6) Bow-tie racism (smiling cordially and denying that they taking away your civil rights).

Would you call such a group that has such aims simply  “immigrant critical?”

No way!

I would call it populist, anti-immigration/xenophobic group,  or ultra-nationalistic.

Note:  You can check out the Finnish-langauge verison of this post on Uusi Suomi.

  1. Osmo

    Yes, there are some disturbing images in your description of people who do not want immigration for the reasons you outline. But most people in Finland do not necessarily share those views of immigrants. They just want status quo – their lives to go on as before – no changes. Yes there are people like that, but too bad they have to vote for the types of people who hate others just for their color.

    The people who are against immigration, could be ones who value their culture and do not want to see it watered down, no hate xenophobia or any other phobia you could think of. They could just see a threat to the Finnish way of life, because, and you cannot deny this: some of those immigrant groups reproduce at many times faster than the Finns themselves. Halonen’s “few thousand immigrants” that we should not be worried about, could one day be the majority. That is where I see the greatest risk to Finland i.e. destruction of religion, language and culture. I have seen it happen in North and South America. Are we so arrogant to think that it can’t happen to us in Finland, because we are too smart? Think about it. We could be causing our self destruction and not even know it.

    • Enrique

      –The people who are against immigration, could be ones who value their culture and do not want to see it watered down.

      Why do you think that when cultures meet it would “water down” a culture? If anything, it makes you aware of other cultures. This is a two-way process.

      –some of those immigrant groups reproduce at many times faster than the Finns themselves.

      You are now looking at society through numbers and demographic theories. Aren’t these people, like JusticeDemon mentioned, members of OUR society?

      –I see the destruction of religion, language and culture.

      I never knew that Finnish culture was self-destructing. I never knew that in countries, where immigration is the rule, groups are self-destructing. I think you exaggerate. Not even the white population in South Africa after apartheid did not self-destruct. I don’t agree with you.

  2. JusticeDemon

    They could just see a threat to the Finnish way of life, because, and you cannot deny this: some of those immigrant groups reproduce at many times faster than the Finns themselves.

    This is an incorrect stereotype. Certainly after the second generation, the trend is for immigrant minority members to raise families of much the same size as the population as a whole. Family size tends to be governed by various practical factors, such as needing plenty of children to work the farm or merely to survive into adulthood.

    In any case, I do not recall any alarmist views over family size in Laestadian communities, even though this particular cultural diversity has continued in Finland for several generations.

    Halonen’s “few thousand immigrants” that we should not be worried about, could one day be the majority. That is where I see the greatest risk to Finland i.e. destruction of religion, language and culture.

    This way of thinking is based on the notion that Finland is something fixed and immutable, whereas one does not need to be a sociologist to see the phenomenal pace of social change in Finland over the last century. In the sense of your commentary, Osmo, Finland has destroyed itself through urbanisation, industrialisation and secularisation to create the society that you now consider normal. There are very few Finns nowadays who would adopt the way of life of the Finns before industrialisation, and any that chose to do so would be considered cranky and not an example to emulate.

    It’s a safe bet that the Finns of 2100 will have a corresponding attitude towards our present society.

    On a related note, one of the most interesting recent documentaries is due to air on UK television today. I understand that as part of their exposure to life in South London these Amish youngsters visited a mosque, and after they got over the initial superficial religious prejudice they discovered considerable common ground with young Moslems.

  3. OnTheRoadToSuccess

    It’s fair to say, many people always try to be “politically correct”. This explains why populist, anti-immigration, xenophobic, or ultra-nationalistic groups are called “Immigration critics” – despite the fact their stance, views, aims and tendencies are void of critical thinking.

    It’s high-time that we called a spade a spade!!

    • Enrique

      Hi Zuzeeko, great to hear from you again. The problem in Finland is that xenophobic groups have sort of high jacked the debate by enforcing their politically correct terminology, like “immigration critic.” If you read the True Finns’ manifest that was published over the weekend you will notice it to be a sort of amateur job on immigration policy. These people, I believe, are xenophobic AND politically opportunists. They believe that by spreading the idea that “Finland should remain white” will land them a lot of votes. They are Finland’s doom.

  4. pun the librarian

    “They believe that by spreading the idea that “Finland should remain white” will land them a lot of votes. They are Finland’s doom.”

    Funny that only ones making that claim are multiculturalist hysterics like you. It always makes me wonder why multiculturalists like yourself insist on devaluing concepts like racism and resort to hyperbole when someone disagrees with your vision. Nationalistic becomes ultra-nationalistic, immigration critical anti-immigration and so on.

    In the long run it works on our favour as more and more people see that we are not racists you make us out to be. I have long since stopped caring what you call us and learned to make it work for my benefit. For example, many people who have never read Jussi Halla-aho are convinced that he’s writings are horribly racist because of people like you. Nothing easier for me than to point these people to read his Scripta to change their minds.

    I am truly grateful for the work you do for us. Keep the halftruths and exaggerations rolling, even try to work in an occasional reference to nazis and more and more people will wake up.

    • Enrique

      -Funny that only ones making that claim are multiculturalist hysterics like you.

      You are welcome, pun the librarian. I never knew that living in a “normal” counry was being a “mulitculturalist.” Does that make you a “monoculturist?” Could you please enlighten us and tell us what a “monoculturalist” is?

      –For example, many people who have never read Jussi Halla-aho are convinced that he’s writings are horribly racist because of people like you.

      Let me put on my kid gloves and be totally politically correct: He is only an “immigration critic.” There, are you happy now?

  5. Tiwaz

    -“This is an incorrect stereotype. Certainly after the second generation, the trend is for immigrant minority members to raise families of much the same size as the population as a whole. Family size tends to be governed by various practical factors, such as needing plenty of children to work the farm or merely to survive into adulthood.”

    Easily checked by looking at countries who made mistake of letting multiculturalism go further already.

    Cases in point:
    UK, France, Germany and Sweden.
    Each suffer from internal issues caused by immigrants refusing to integrate. Birthrates of second generation immigrants also have failed to plummet to same level as natives and second and third generation immigrants are still unintegrated.

    This is what I oppose. I have nothing against immigrants like Tony who has written here to come. Hell, welcome to every Tony for all I care!

    It is immigrants like Enrique and people he represents I detest and want to see on the opposite side of Finnish border.

    • Enrique

      –Easily checked by looking at countries who made mistake of letting multiculturalism go further already. Cases in point:
      UK, France, Germany and Sweden.

      Why didn’t you mention REAL multicultural countries, the big leagues, that are OFFICIALLY multicultural like Canada, England and Australia? Why not mention the United States, Argentina, Brazil etc while you are at it. These countries you mentioned are European and they have heavy historical problems with racism. Germany is a case in point as is France. Remember the Vichy regime? You state the UK but I would dispute that England is a failure. England rocks a million times over France because they at least understand that cultures should be respected.

      –It is immigrants like Enrique and people he represents I detest and want to see on the opposite side of Finnish border.

      Thank you for the compliment! Why don’t you form a new Lapua Movement and drive me to the Russian border? Sorry, Tiwaz, this is 2010 and you are going to have to suck in diversity and different opinions. This is not Nuremburg nor Stalin’s purges of the 1930s; it isn’t the United States of the late-1890s before Upton Sinclair wrote his famous book, The Jungle. Wake up to the times!

  6. Tiwaz

    -“Why didn’t you mention REAL multicultural countries, the big leagues, that are OFFICIALLY multicultural like Canada, England and Australia?
    Why not mention the United States, Argentina, Brazil etc while you are at it.”

    Because they are down the same shitcreek and have no paddles either. USA? Ethnic riots of LA. General issues with crime in and around various unintegrated ethnicity areas. (for exaple Cuban areas in Florida)

    -“These countries you mentioned are European and they have heavy historical problems with racism.”

    Oh, Sweden too? Apparently ALL European nations have issues with racism, since those were only first to come to my mind. Netherlands, nation of the most liberal people is already starting to get fed up with immigrants who want to make Sharia part of Dutch way of life.

    You apparently mistake having your own culture and wanting to keep it as racism.

    Amusing that you call Sweden racist.

    -“Germany is a case in point as is France. Remember the Vichy regime? You state the UK but I would dispute that England is a failure. England rocks a million times over France because they at least understand that cultures should be respected. ”

    So go there. Why don’t you move to “rocking” UK?

    Because that country is going to hell! Native britons are ALSO getting sick and tired of fact that apparently every culture EXCEPT british must be respected. Britain has bent over so far to appease immigrants, who are never satisfied but demanding more appeasement, that it can soon kiss it’s own ass.

    Biggest issue of Europe, and world, is not native racism towards immigrants, but racism towards natives.

    -“Thank you for the compliment!”

    So you admit that your only goal in life is racism towards Finns?
    At least I got ONE honest comment out of you.

    -“Why don’t you form a new Lapua Movement and drive me to the Russian border? Sorry, Tiwaz, this is 2010 and you are going to have to suck in diversity and different opinions. This is not Nuremburg nor Stalin’s purges of the 1930s; it isn’t the United States of the late-1890s before Upton Sinclair wrote his famous book, The Jungle. Wake up to the times!”

    Wake up Enrique! Read the news.
    Multiculturalism and immigrant appeasement have run their course all over Europe.

    New immigration critical thinking is rising as natives all over have decide that they have had enough of being mistreated by arrogant immigrants demanding appeasement.

    Burkhas are ending up on the banlist everywhere, and politicians finally figuring out that natives are sick and tired are forced to get off their asses and start fixing the problems caused by unintegrating immigrants.

    Wake up to the times Enrique! Finns, Dutch, French and so forth have had enough.

    Immigrants duty is to integrate, and they better learn it soon.

    • Enrique

      Tiwaz, the only thing I can recommend for you, before your own shadow starts to frighten you, is declare independence for a part of Finland. It could be Kainuu or some other remote place. There you can realize your wildest fantasies of “monoculturalism” and feel “(in)secure” and see the outside world as a threat. You don’t have to create your own republic. You can go to the United States and meet up with other people who are getting ready for a race war. I am certain you will find yourself at home with them.
      As for me, I accept globalization as a FACT and I have no QUALMS with diversity because I do not waste my time on hatred of the Other. There is a good saying I recommend for you: Make lemonade out of lemons.

    • Enrique

      –So you admit that your only goal in life is racism towards Finns?

      I don’t have racism problems. I have dealt and put those phantoms to rest in the 1970s. And why would I want to be racist against myself? I don’t understand your logic.

  7. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz
    Cases in point:
    UK, France, Germany and Sweden.
    Each suffer from internal issues caused by immigrants refusing to integrate. Birthrates of second generation immigrants also have failed to plummet to same level as native…

    I gave the orthodox opinion of migration specialists above in the following terms:

    Certainly after the second generation, the trend is for immigrant minority members to raise families of much the same size as the population as a whole.

    This view was reflected for the UK in the statistics that emerged after the year 2000 census. You will find one technical report on this here, but it may be easier to discuss the digested findings as reported by the BBC here.

    The BBC article explains the phenomenon as follows:

    The report said: “The age-sex profiles and the proportions of each ethnic group born in the UK are greatly influenced by the timing of the various waves of immigration into this country as migrants are mainly young adults.”

    Those groups who had been in the UK longest tended to see the least growth in their numbers.

    Black people of Caribbean origin – who came to the UK in large numbers in the 1950s and 1960s – registered no growth at all.

    But among black Africans whose immigration to the UK peaked in the 1980s and 1990s the growth was 37%.

    That trend was also reflected among the Asian population with the numbers of people of Bangladeshi origin – whose immigration to the UK peaked in the 1980s – up by a third.

    However the longer established Indian community grew by just 4%.

    The ethnic minority birth rate properly so understood is the birth rate to parents who were born in the country concerned, not the birth rate to parents who were born abroad. This is partly because parents born abroad are already of fertile age when first arriving, but mainly because the birth rate to parents born in the country concerned tends to align with the national average.

    I would wager that the average birth rate to Laestadian families will exceed the birth rate to all third generation and most second generation ethnic minority parents.

    What specific figures were you thinking of, Tiwaz? Put up or shut up.

  8. Tiwaz

    -“As for me, I accept globalization as a FACT and I have no QUALMS with diversity because I do not waste my time on hatred of the Other. There is a good saying I recommend for you: Make lemonade out of lemons.”

    Neither you have homeland or culture you can with any justification call your own.

    Vegabonds like you are eager to deny everyone else these things as well.

    -“I don’t have racism problems. I have dealt and put those phantoms to rest in the 1970s. And why would I want to be racist against myself? I don’t understand your logic.”

    Yes you have racism problem. You just think it is not racism if it targets the natives of the land and majority.

    But you ARE racist. You are racist towards Finns and our culture.

    And Demon, here is one example from Germany for you:
    http://www.oeaw.ac.at/vid/empse/download/empse08_03_2.pdf

    Birth rates are stabilizing, but slowly. Second generation are still considerably above national average.

    You could say this is due to educational reasons as well. Immigrants do not appear to have interest or skills (specifically language) tends to cause immigrants remain at lower educational classes. Which traditionally have more children.

  9. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz
    And Demon, here is one example from Germany for you:
    http://www.oeaw.ac.at/vid/empse/download/empse08_03_2.pdf

    Birth rates are stabilizing, but slowly. Second generation are still considerably above national average.

    You could say this is due to educational reasons as well. Immigrants do not appear to have interest or skills (specifically language) tends to cause immigrants remain at lower educational classes. Which traditionally have more children.

    It’s not at all clear how you reached your conclusions based on that German research. In any case there is a huge problem in demographic analyses of Germany due to reunification.

    As I noted above, the orthodox view remains that the immigrant minority birth rate tends towards the national average.

    The educational achievement of immigrants is very complex subject. Second generation Asian immigrants in the UK outperform the national average by a considerable margin. They also outperform classmates of the same socio-economic status. We can speculate about the reasons for this, but I would emphasise bilingualism and stable families as major background factors.

    I should add that education is not the only determiner of socio-economic status, although equality legislation and equal opportunity programmes have helped to correct some of the grosser disparities, especially in the public sector.

    • Enrique

      Justice Demon, I think Twiaz’ issue is that he will always see people from different cultures as “Them” even though they are full-fledged citizens with the same rights as everyone else. It does not matter if they have been born or have lived most of their lives in the country. It is his bad luck that he wasn’t born in the 1930s, during the hysteria of “race and blood” and all that other boloney was upheld.

  10. Tiwaz

    -“Justice Demon, I think Twiaz’ issue is that he will always see people from different cultures as “Them” even though they are full-fledged citizens with the same rights as everyone else. It does not matter if they have been born or have lived most of their lives in the country. It is his bad luck that he wasn’t born in the 1930s, during the hysteria of “race and blood” and all that other boloney was upheld.”

    No, your issue is that you do not grasp that Finn and citizen of Finland are two different things. You Enrique are not Finn. You will never be Finn because you do not know how to integrate.

    And your kind are the disease in the humanity because you are like Nazis or Communists. You take ideology and are blind to REALITY. Instead trying to force reality to fit your narrow, racist ideology.

    When it fails, you blame everyone and everything but yourself and your failed ideology.

    JusticeDemon:
    Just read the article and look at birthrates.
    They do drop, yes, but still remain statistically good deal above native birthrates.

    Same is has been true for France and Netherlands.
    http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2008/04/30/Walkers-World-French-births-soar/UPI-20871209568785/

    Yes, trend is that immigrant birthrates drop, but they still do not go down to native levels. And as trends go, it can go back up as well. Specially as 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants tend to also become more radical, at least male portion of them.

    This is because of their rootless stature more than anything. Failure of parents to integrate, instead trying to cling to culture of their native land, and fact that surrounding culture is NOT one of their native land leaves immigrant children increasingly hanging.

    Their home teaches them to act one way, but society where they should be able to live expects them to act differently.

    Insert cultural conflict and radicalization.

    Because of this, integration of immigrants must take precedence above all else. They must learn the way of the land, ensuring that their children can achieve feeling of belonging and grow roots to their land of birth. In essence, becoming natives culturally.

  11. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz – now you are slipping back into your cultural suicide mode, whereas elsewhere you have merely insisted that minority communities must adjust outwardly to the majority.

    They must learn the way of the land, ensuring that their children can achieve feeling of belonging and grow roots to their land of birth. In essence, becoming natives culturally.

    Does this apply to Finland’s Jewish community? How about the Laestadians of Rovaniemi? They may justifiably argue that the culture of the Finnish majority has evolved away from the culture that they have preserved.

    You have reduced the discussion of immigrant minority birth rates to a glass half empty or half full debate that is no longer worth pursuing, but thanks for keeping a civil tone anyway.

  12. JusticeDemon

    One footnote to that last point, Tiwaz. When it comes to claiming support from references that you clearly haven’t read, that last one discussing demographic trends in France is an object example. Where exactly did you find support for your views in that UPI report?

    LOL

  13. Tiwaz

    -“Does this apply to Finland’s Jewish community? How about the Laestadians of Rovaniemi? They may justifiably argue that the culture of the Finnish majority has evolved away from the culture that they have preserved.”

    Jewish community cannot claim it as Finnish culture has never been jewish. Same with Lestadian communities.

    Finnish culture far outages both groups. However, both subgroups have learned to live in Finland on Finnish terms. And let their children to live on them, making them adjusted Finns with some peculiar habits but nothing which would _conflict_ with Finnish culture.

    -“One footnote to that last point, Tiwaz. When it comes to claiming support from references that you clearly haven’t read, that last one discussing demographic trends in France is an object example. Where exactly did you find support for your views in that UPI report?”

    Statistics. Take example of Germany again. While immigrant, Turk namely, women have dropped in birthrates, they are still well above Germans. 0,5 is huge difference in the end. For every 2 children born to German woman, her Turk counterpart in Germany gives birth to 3.

    One is theoretically maintaining population at constant, other one growing.

    Same in that UPI article is true for every other country mentioned.

    It does not matter that they are not as much above statistics of natives, but it matters that even after couple generations they are significantly above in birthrates.

    And with radicalization of immigrants, specially muslims, this trend can still turn (Islamic cultures tend to see woman more as property and breeding machine than human. If this was before Islam or after Islam was introduced to their societies is irrelevant)

    This can be seen in increase of “honor” murders in Europe.

    • Enrique

      –Jewish community cannot claim it as Finnish culture has never been jewish. Same with Lestadian communities.

      Really? You have a right to your opinions. What is racist about this comment is its exclusiveness. Finns are like this and people from other cultures are like that; therefore, they are not Finns. If you believe so strongly in your opinions about who are Finns, why don’t you publish your views in a scientific publication or in a newspaper like HS or newsmagazine like SK? Why do you think your view of other cultures and what constitutes a Finn would not be published? Is it because you know more than they?

    • Enrique

      –And with radicalization of immigrants, specially muslims, this trend can still turn (Islamic cultures tend to see woman more as property and breeding machine than human. If this was before Islam or after Islam was introduced to their societies is irrelevant).

      This is one of the pet topics of the far right in Europe. I have sent a number of emails to far-right groups like Jobbik, Sweden Democrats etc and asked them what is threatening “their culture.” You know what? None of them replied. This is a good example of how they cannot debate with facts the issues.

  14. JusticeDemon

    Here we have Tiwaz in cultural suicide mode:

    They must learn the way of the land, ensuring that their children can achieve feeling of belonging and grow roots to their land of birth. In essence, becoming natives culturally.

    And here we have Tiwaz in multicultural mode:

    both subgroups have learned to live in Finland on Finnish terms. And let their children to live on them, making them adjusted Finns with some peculiar habits but nothing which would _conflict_ with Finnish culture.

    It’s interesting that you dispute the Finnishness of Laestadian communities. What is it about them that is not Finnish? Their Lutheranism? Their temperance? Their sexual ethics? I think we should be told.

    You are unable to quote any part of the UPI article that supports your view, even though you originally cited this article. For those who cannot be bothered to follow the link:

    …INED, France’s National Institute of Demographic Studies, has done some detailed research and concluded that France’s immigrant population is responsible for only 5 percent of the rise in the birthrate and that France’s population would be rising anyway even without the immigrant population.

    That is important in a country where the number of immigrants from traditionally Muslim countries and their French-born children and grandchildren is now reckoned to be more than 6 million from a total population of 60.7 million. The anti-immigration Front National Party has claimed the rise in births came from Muslims, who were thus on track to become an eventual majority, and this appears not to be the case.

    In fact in France, like everywhere else in Europe, the birthrate among immigrant mothers drops quickly toward the local norm in less than two generations.

    When reading the following, please note that the figures refer solely to Moslem women born either abroad (1st generation) or in the country concerned (2nd and subsequent generations):

    The birthrates of Muslim women in Europe have been falling significantly for some time. In the Netherlands, for example, the TFR among Dutch-born women rose between 1990 and 2005 from 1.6 to 1.7. In the same period for Moroccan-born women in Holland it fell from 4.9 to 2.9, and for Turkish-born women in Holland from 3.2 to 1.9.

    In Austria, the TFR of Muslim women fell from 3.1 to 2.3 from 1981 to 2001. In 1970 Turkish-born women in Germany had on average two children more than German-born women. By 1996 the difference had fallen to one child and has now dropped to 0.5. These sharp falls reflect important cultural shifts, which include the impact of universal female education, rising living standards, the effect of local cultural norms and availability of contraception.

    So the indications are that fertility rates are even falling for first generation immigrants.

    You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension in English, Tiwaz. What you said was:

    For every 2 children born to German woman, her Turk counterpart in Germany gives birth to 3.

    The UPI article says no such thing. It says that in 1996 Moslem women who were born in Turkey and now live in Germany were having 0.5 more children than Moslem women who were born in Germany. This contrasts with a corresponding difference of 2 additional children born to first generation Turkish immigrant women in 1970 compared to their German-born Moslem counterparts.

    In other words, the birth rate among first generation Moslem immigrants is falling steeply.

    Perhaps you should stick to quoting Stormfront.

  15. Tiwaz

    -“Really? You have a right to your opinions. What is racist about this comment is its exclusiveness. Finns are like this and people from other cultures are like that; therefore, they are not Finns.”

    Culture, above all else, defines Finnishness. You are not Finn, you could not act Finn even if your life depended on it.

    Jani Toivola, black as moonless night, is Finn. He acts Finn without ever even thinking of it. It is to him as natural as breathing.

    -“It’s interesting that you dispute the Finnishness of Laestadian communities. What is it about them that is not Finnish? Their Lutheranism? Their temperance? Their sexual ethics? I think we should be told.”

    I do not dispute them being Finns. Just the opposite. Despite their differences to native population, they are culturally Finns.

    However, what I said is that Finnish culture/society far predates both Lestadian and Jewish communities. By several millenias. Around 9-10 of them.

    As for civil discussion, there you go throwing insults around Daemon. Tsk tsk…

    Guess it was too much to expect someone like you to remain civil.

    What you also forget is that it is traditional specifically in Islamic communities to import spouses from country of origin:
    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1768

    • Enrique

      –Culture, above all else, defines Finnishness. You are not Finn, you could not act Finn even if your life depended on it.

      I believe that the exact attitude that you show reveals what is wrong with some Finns. That is YOUR problem, not mine. Since it is, I am not going to give it any importance.

      As you may have noticed, and despite your raging on many occasions, we have been kind enough to allow you to give your opinions. I do this, as well as others that visit this blog, because we don’t feel threatened (like you do about other cultures). Your opinions reveal how some Finns think about cultures. Thank you for revealing this to us.

  16. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz talking about Laestadians, (July 29, 2010 at 5:37 am):

    I do not dispute them being Finns. Just the opposite. Despite their differences to native population, they are culturally Finns.

    Tiwaz talking about Laestadians, (July 28, 2010 at 5:20 am):

    Jewish community cannot claim it as Finnish culture has never been jewish. Same with Lestadian communities.

    Make your mind up.

    The jury is still out on your ideas of “Finnish culture predating” anything, as you have obstinately refused to define Finnish culture in tangible terms. Finns have not always lived in centrally heated apartment blocks (not invented in Finland), worked in high technology industry (not invented in Finland), and based their society on motorised logistics (not invented in Finland). Most of the modern lexicon of the Finnish language is of non-Finnish origin and the average Finn has great difficulty in reading the earliest examples of writing in the Finnish language, even though these do not date so very far back. English speakers can read Shakespeare and Chaucer more comfortably. Even the naming system used for individuals in Finland has only relatively recently changed so that children are not automatically given a patronymic with a surname corresponding to the farm where they happen to live.

    As far as I can see, your references to Finnish culture simply mean “anyone that Tiwaz accepts”. My own view is that modern Finnish culture is hospitable, inclusive and tolerant, though a certain degree of reserve and insecurity remains. By this standard you are more than unusual.

  17. Tiwaz

    -“As you may have noticed, and despite your raging on many occasions, we have been kind enough to allow you to give your opinions. I do this, as well as others that visit this blog, because we don’t feel threatened (like you do about other cultures). Your opinions reveal how some Finns think about cultures. Thank you for revealing this to us.”

    And I am confident people have also noticed your racist attitude towards Finns. And inability to support with evience the principles you claim to stand up for.

    To me it is most important to reveal to the world the lie which is multiculturalism, and you in your ability to support it’s “excellence” with facts is good example of it.

    I am in this blog because sadly this is one of the places where uninformed foreigners might look at, and if your lies were to be permitted to stand without being confronted they most likely would never question your lies.

    JusticeDemon:

    There is no difference. Finnish culture predates Jews and Lestadians in Finland. They do not in any way define Finnish culture or have any notable impact on Finnish culture.

    However, both groups are formed from culturally Finnish people who live and act according to Finnish culture. Their additional religious traditions do not violate Finnish cultural framework.

    -“Most of the modern lexicon of the Finnish language is of non-Finnish origin and the average Finn has great difficulty in reading the earliest examples of writing in the Finnish language, even though these do not date so very far back.”

    Proof of it being non-Finnish in origin? You forget that “Father” of written Finnish was, as far as anyone knows, Finn. Born in Finland and either bilingual or had Finnish as native language. Father being named “Olavi” tends to give credibility to this.

    And you clearly forget that language and written language are NOT same thing. Finnish language has existed long before anyone thought of writing it down.

    Finnish culture and language have changed over years, but change has been born from internal want of Finns to change.

    I am not opposed to changes in Finnish culture, I am opposed to you foreigners coming to Finland to dictate to us natives what our culture and society should be like and demanding appeasement for your own cultural traditions at expense of Finnish ones.

    • Enrique

      –To me it is most important to reveal to the world the lie which is multiculturalism, and you in your ability to support it’s “excellence” with facts is good example of it.

      When you speak of multiculturalism are you referring to the Canadian social policy or the Finnish defintioin, which means a society comprising of many cultures? If you refer to the latter, there is nothing you can do about it. In many countries “miulticulturlaism” (Finnish defintion) is a demographic fact. So, learn to live with it.

      When you claim that I am or others are “uniformed” and “lie” in this blog, you should look at yourself. Many of the bloggers that visit Migrant Tales HAVE lived and grown up in cultyurally diverse societies, lived in Finland for many, many years and are successful members of society; many have spouses from another culture. They have seen the challenges and the great advantage their children have when they are brought up in more than one culture.

    • Enrique

      — I am not opposed to changes in Finnish culture, I am opposed to you foreigners coming to Finland to dictate to us natives what our culture and society should be like and demanding appeasement for your own cultural traditions at expense of Finnish ones.

      Oh yes you are. Your view, in my opinion, of cultural change is antiquated and out of date. When you have people from diverse cultures coming to live in a society, change happens automatically. It is not like as if you want to keep Finnish culture in a time warp and ask everyone that moves here to assimilate to it. That is not how it works. Look at many aspects of Finnish culture. Look at gastronomy. We have seen huge changes. You cannot compare what Finns ate 30-40 years ago with what they eat today. Remember in the 1970s when pizza was relatively unknown? Did foreigners “force” Finns to eat and like pizza?

  18. Osmo

    Why do all you foreigners in this site support uncontrolled immigration, and the residents, not all but most, oppose it? Tell me. What is in it for you guys? You guys are quite arrogant really to say we are wrong and you are right about immigration. You have been accepted into our country and now you take an opposite views of most of the locals. You think that you are civilizing us! That tells me something, and it tells most other Finns something about you and your motives in our country. Certainly it tells us that something is wrong with your patriotism, at least. I wonder what you guys would do if there was a war…I suspect you would be out of here so fast it would make your heads spin.

    • Enrique

      Osmo, there are a number of false statements in your comment: (1) who and where has anyone proposed “uncontrolled” immigration? That is a pet term that some people in the far right like to use to point out how bad immigration is; (2) Are “we” arrogant if we talk about immigration openly? Why do you consider debate as “arrogant?” Is it “civilizing” somebody? Migrant Tales’ popularity, in my humble opinion, has to do with the fact that we speak of issues that we consider important to some of us. People are free to disagree. (3) Seomthing wrong with our “patriotism?!” What does patriotism mean to you? For some patriotism, which is the opposite of nationalism, means a sense of community. We belong to the same society and contribute to it. There is a strong sense of us not “us” and “them” as emphasized by far-right groups. Having that sense of community means taking part in debates that affect our home. Is that unpatriotic? And, by the way, I believe that the majority of Finns oppose racism. I think they are ashamed of it. (4) This is a usual far-right question: What would you do if there was a war? Have you ever seen war? Are you one of those who glorifies war but has never seen a day in the army?

  19. Tiwaz

    -“They have seen the challenges and the great advantage their children have when they are brought up in more than one culture.”

    Have they? You as example of person grown in multiple cultures is something to pity, not envy. You lack roots. You have your citizenship in passport, but no culture and society to call your own. You are rootless, homeless vegabond demanding that I must also be one by looking for destruction of my culture.

    -“Your view, in my opinion, of cultural change is antiquated and out of date.”

    Your look on cultural change is unrealistic and totally idiotic.

    -“You cannot compare what Finns ate 30-40 years ago with what they eat today. Remember in the 1970s when pizza was relatively unknown? Did foreigners “force” Finns to eat and like pizza?”

    So? Has eating pizza made me italian? Hell, what I eat when I go get pizza is nothing like “real” pizza if you ask Italians. They just want to put tomato on top and couple other stuff.

    To them, the goodness I call pizza with huge variety of toppings is not pizza.

    Furthermore, your attitude IS arrogant. You say that I, native, must appease your cultural norms here. I must “understand” your special needs.

    Bullshit. Immigrants have to accept that in Finland, they are judged by Finnish standards. If found lacking, all the whining about how your culture “does it differently” is useless.

    If your behavior is acceptable in your culture, but not condoned in Finnish culture (look up idea of circumcision for one) it is not accepted in Finland.
    Period.

    In Finland, learn to accept that it is Finnish culture which matters.

    I can accept foreign cultures in Finland, but as said they must accept that they play the second violing. Finnish culture forms the framework into which foreigners must fit their culture.

    Demanding that things which are offensive to your culture is unacceptable if they are accepted in Finnish culture. Like example of Tony and the idiot who railed against team celebrating with sauna, sausage and sauce.

    If you can’t eat, drink or be merry naked in hot room, do not participate. But do not fucking dare to think that you have any business denying it for the rest of us.

    • Enrique

      –Have they? You as example of person grown in multiple cultures is something to pity, not envy.

      You are SO funny, Tiwaz. A barrel of laughs. Good one!

  20. xyz

    So? Has eating pizza made me italian? Hell, what I eat when I go get pizza is nothing like “real” pizza if you ask Italians. They just want to put tomato on top and couple other stuff.

    To them, the goodness I call pizza with huge variety of toppings is not pizza.
    -Congratulation, you have just discovered how you can benefit from other cultures and further develop your own culture. If you would not have known about the basic Italian Pizza then you would also not have a Pizza with many toppings on it.

  21. Tiwaz

    -“Congratulation, you have just discovered how you can benefit from other cultures and further develop your own culture. If you would not have known about the basic Italian Pizza then you would also not have a Pizza with many toppings on it.”

    Read what I have written. I have never expected Finnish culture or society to remain still, but I have told you foreign fruitcakes that it is not for you to decide how Finnish culture changes.

    You, if you want to live in Finland, must adjust to Finland. Not expect us to appease your fruity ass by changing our culture to fit yours.

  22. xyz

    Well you might change your own culture anyway if you see what other cultures have to offer.

    You don’t think that a cake with fruits tastes better than a plain dry cake? 🙂

  23. Osmo

    This is another period in history of “Great Migrations” that have occurred many times in history. During these exchanges of culture, Finland has received many new technology. These were adopted willingly by Finns for various reasons such as to improve agriculture, or some other thing that was hard, but now due to the new technology, was made much easier.

    Today, we also have received a huge influx of people, many times more than in those past influxes, due to improved transportation. Finland is a small country, and as such it is very sensitive to the numbers of immigrants currently arriving/arrived at our shores. This sudden influx can cause a cultural shock, which has happened here. It will take Finns some time to evaluate and/or adapt to these sudden changes which are for good or bad. When statistics show a sudden increase in such things as crime including rape and murder, it is natural for the Finnish people to as “why?” At first the Ministry of Interior published the breakdown into ethnic categories, and you guessed it, the majority of the criminals were…IMMIGRANTS! This caused such a backlash to immigration that the Ministry stopped publishing these statistics. I rest my case.

    • Enrique

      All that you are talking about can be summed up in one word: globalization. Economic growth means more migrant workers etc.

  24. JusticeDemon

    Osmo:

    When did the Ministry of the Interior publish statistics on the ethnic background of convicted felons? I’m puzzled by this, as these data have never been recorded (there are no forms for this purpose). Even if they had been, the Ministry of the Interior would have been the wrong central government agency to do so, as criminal justice statistics are gathered by the Ministry of Justice.

    What statistics are you talking about?

  25. Tiwaz

    -“When did the Ministry of the Interior publish statistics on the ethnic background of convicted felons? I’m puzzled by this, as these data have never been recorded (there are no forms for this purpose). Even if they had been, the Ministry of the Interior would have been the wrong central government agency to do so, as criminal justice statistics are gathered by the Ministry of Justice.”

    Statistics have been public for a good while and whole lot of people have put them together.

    Result is that for example in rape crimes, immigrants are disproportionately represented (immigrants in this case being someone with foreign citizenship).

    Tilastokeskus has had this information available for a good while.

    -“Well you might change your own culture anyway if you see what other cultures have to offer.

    You don’t think that a cake with fruits tastes better than a plain dry cake? 🙂 ”

    I like dry cake, it lasts longer. As for what other cultures have to offer… Sure, show what you have to offer, but make sure you only show things which do not conflict with Finnish existing culture.

    And do not ever presume to demand anything from us natives. We are not required to appease you.

  26. JusticeDemon

    Tiwaz:

    Tilastokeskus has had this information available for a good while.

    Nope, still didn’t find it. Perhaps you can provide a link (hopefully a relevant one that you have read and understood).

    AFAIK the criminal courts do not routinely record the ethnic extraction or even the citizenship of convicted felons, so it’s not clear how Statistics Finland could obtain such information in the first place.

  27. Tiwaz

    -“Nope, still didn’t find it. Perhaps you can provide a link (hopefully a relevant one that you have read and understood).

    AFAIK the criminal courts do not routinely record the ethnic extraction or even the citizenship of convicted felons, so it’s not clear how Statistics Finland could obtain such information in the first place.”

    Police has made routine record of citizenship of people arrested.

    Do you have evidence that police arrests foreigners instead of Finns as practice?

    Hell, whole lot of those foreigners would not even show in the statistic because they get Finnish passport. So statistics are even worse than they appear based on that.

  28. JusticeDemon

    So you can’t cite statistics on criminal convictions.

    Is it your view, Tiwaz, that arrest is the same as criminal conviction?

    Try to answer without inviting the expression police State in any apposite riposte.

  29. Osmo

    The Ministry of Interior posted that information for the year 2000. I was told that they stopped the practice, and I don’t remember that source for that. The data source is on uralica.com/finnliv5.htm. I was shocked at the information. I had no idea that immigrants were choking the country’s courts. And my post says “most suspected” so that leaves a lot of room for doubt of the figures. It could be they have been charged or convicted, we don’t know which. So your points are well taken, but I still think there is some truth to the figures, even if only one half are actually convicted.

    So I know you will not find the data at the Ministry of Interior because they do not (or have been told not to) gather that type of information that points the finger at any specific group as being criminals.

  30. Osmo

    This Email is in circulation in Canada concerning immigration, and it applies in Finland as my father fought for our freedom:

    THIS IS MY COUNTRY – CANADA

    My great grandfather watched as his friends died in WW1, my father watched as his friends died in WW II, and I watched as my friends died in Afghanistan .
    None of them died for a Foreign Flag.
    Everyone died for the Canadian flag.

    We removed Christian prayer from our schools as it might offend a minority of students not of the Christian faith.
    It is politically incorrect for Public and Civil Servants to wear anything of a religious nature while serving the public, despite the fact that civil servants are allowed to wear turbans on the job as public or Civil servants.
    Why? – Because it is against their religion not to wear it.

    In fact, our Prime Minister forbade the use of any Christian reference when a memorial service was held on the shores of the Atlantic Ocean near Halifax . The memorial was in remembrance of the 229 people that lost their lives in the September 2, 1998 Swiss Air Flight 111 that crashed. Almost all of the crash victims were Christian.

    We have removed any reference to Christianity in our Courts of Law, despite the fact that our laws are based on Christian principles and values.

    Bike laws in almost all Canadian Jurisdictions require bike riders to wear safety helmets. You guessed it. – people who are required to wear turbans are exempt because a helmet is not designed to be worn over a turban.

    Some ten years ago a Commission was assembled in Ontario (lobbied for by Muslims) to investigate the practicality of allowing Canadians of the Muslim faith to practice Sharia law. The Commission head (a former Attorney General in the Bob Rae NDP Government) presented the Commission findings to the succeeding Provincial Government to allow limited use of Sharia Law for Canadians of the Muslim faith. The recommendation was rejected. – It should never have gone that far and in fact the issue should never have reached a discussion stage, let alone the formation of a commission.

    It is politically incorrect to wish our fellow Canadians Merry Christmas.
    And the list goes on and on.

    Enough is enough.

    The below e-mail message needs to be viewed by every Canadian; and every Canadian needs to stand up for Canada .

    We’ve bent over to appease the new Canadian immigrants long enough.
    I’m taking a stand.
    I’m standing up because the tens of thousands who died fighting in wars for this country, and for the Canadian flag, can’t stand up.

    If you agree, stand up with me.
    If you disagree, then just delete it.
    And shame on anyone who tries to make this a racist message.

    A Map Of My Country:

    Let me make this perfectly clear!

    THIS IS MY COUNTRY!
    And, because I make This statement

    DOES NOT

    Mean I’m against immigration!!!

    YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, IN MY COUNTRY!
    Welcome! To come through legally:

    1. Get a sponsor!
    2. Get a place to lay your head!
    3. Get a job!
    4. Live By OUR Rules!
    5. Pay YOUR Taxes!

    And
    6. Learn the LANGUAGE like immigrants
    have in the past!!!
    AND
    7. Please don’t demand that we hand over our lifetime
    savings of Social Security Funds to you.

    If you don’t want to forward this for fear of offending someone,
    Then YOU’RE PART OF THE PROBLEM!

    When will Canadians STOP giving away THEIR RIGHTS???

    We’ve gone so far the other way…
    bent over backwards not to offend anyone.
    But it seems no one cares about the
    Canadian CITIZEN
    that’s being offended!

    WAKE UP Canada !!!

    If You agree…. Pass this on.

    If You don’t agree.. Delete It !!!

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