Alberdi and the role of immigration to Finland

by , under All categories, Enrique

Juan Bautista Alberdi was one of the greatest social thinkers that Latin America produced in the nineteenth century.  If we look at the Argentina and South America right after these countries gained independence from Spain from the 1820s, they faced a daunting task: How to build new nations from scratch.

Countries in the region were huge in size with little infrastructure and small populations. In the early nineteenth century, Argentina’s population was a mere 400,000 while Uruguay and Paraguay had an estimated 40,000 and 100,000, respectively. Even countries such as Brazil had underwhelming populations: in 1800 it was estimated to be 3.35 million versus 300,000 in 1700. In the Viceroyalty of Nueva Granada (Ecuador, Colombia, Panama and Venezuela), population estimates for 1750 show that there lived 350,000 Peninsulares (native Spaniards) compared with 600,000 native Americans in 1650.

Before the arrival of the Spaniards in greater numbers from the sixteenth century, the indigenous population was estimated in the Americas to be between 80 million and 100 million, according to some estimates.

Looking at Argentina from the mid-nineteenth century, Alberdi understood that the country would never realize its potential with a small population. According to him, Argentina would never become a developed and prosperous nation as long as it had a population of one million (by 1869 it had grown to 1.527 million) in a country that could comfortably house 50 million people.

While immigration played a more prominent role in forging the populations of countries such as Argentina as opposed to Colombia, it radically changed the demographic make up. By 1914, Argentina’s population had grown to 5.527 million, or 30.3% of the population (49.4% in Buenos Aires!) thanks to immigration.

Look at these percentages and compare it with Finland’s 2.7% foreign population. Some Finns are already sounding the alarms bells because of such a single-digit percentage!

Apart from the demographic impact, European immigration changed the country socially, politically and economically. It had an adverse impact on the country’s Amerindian population. The good news, however, is that such a high percentage of immigrants did not end up at each others throats as was the case in the former Yugoslavia.

Alberdi and Finland

As Finnish policy makers and politicians plan how many immigrants Finland must have to maintain our standard of living and social welfare state, they should read statesmen such as Alberdi, study Finnish and general immigration history to grasp what immigration means instead of falling into the defensive and fearing what it implies to our country.

Alberdi’s greatest work was Bases, which looked at the different constitutions in the region and which ones Argentina should not imitate. His main argument was that those constitutions that placed limits on immigration and nationality were examples that Argentina should not imitate. Taking into account the nationalism and highly exclusive nature of Finland’s constitution of 1919 up to 1999, Alberdi would have surely criticized it because it discouraged immigration on all levels and made citizenship exclusive.

The big question: If Finnish society and history have reinforced nationalism as a nation-building process by excluding others, how is Finland going to be receptive to new members of society?

The above question, in my opinion, is the biggest unanswered challenge facing Finland. We are not ready and too few understand what immigration is and how our society could benefit and correct some of the challenges it imposes.

A good pessimistic example comes from a recent seminar I attended with Finnsh-language teachers who work with refugees and immigrants. After scraping through the “we-believe-Finland-will-win-with-newcomers” phase of our conversation, one of the teachers said in a defensive tone: “We don’t have to change even if more immigrants come to Finland.”

What this statement reveals is not only ignorance what immigration implies but a deep fear that some Finns have. They believe that all they have to do is to bring labor immigrants and continue with their lives as if nothing has happened. Finns don’t have to change because immigrants will be assimilated into our culture.

One could ask how prevalent this feeling is among our policy makers, politicians and population. If that is what the majority feels, immigration will fail miserably in this country.

The saddest fact is that we do not understand why it even failed before it began. on a bigger scale.

    • Enrique

      –And how much natives are in argentina?

      Right now very few in relation with the population. However, in the 19th century there may have been up to half a million.

  1. Tiwaz

    Does this not answer to your question then on why Finns do not want immigrants if that means that immigrants want to bring their culture with them?

    We are the natives, and we prefer not to go extinct.

  2. Tony Garcia

    I think this post is a must to everyone who had any doubt about what multiculturalism is and what will do to the country.

    Let me thank you Enrique (I really not being sarcastic) for your clarity, honesty and guts to put things with such openness.

    Now for those reading this, do you really want you country to be changed? Have you seen what happened to UK, Ireland, France, Sweden and others? Is that a country you want to live in? Is this the future you want for your children?

    For the very first time we are having the cards on the table, and you should pay great attention to this post, and more, I would urge you to recommend it to as much people as you can, in particularly to those you know may be sympathetic to multiculturalism. Now we are seeing it showing its teeth, and it’s not a pretty face.

    For the first time the mask has fallen and we see what multiculturalists are up to. They keep saying about ageing population and lack of skilled workers. Although both real problems, they are being used to a quite different goal – change the makeup of this country. Once I said that adaptation is a sin in the multicultural fate and people like myself and Willy are a “wasted asset”. That was denied, as expected, but now you can see it for yourself. Adaptation is not an option because it doesn’t change the country. That’s why multiculturalists always criticize integration programs, because it goes to an opposite direction they wish. Integration aims to achieve homogeneity and nothing could be far from what they want.

    Don’t forget the most important dogma of multiculturalism – equal is bad, different is good, very different is great.

    Change, that is what you are going to get if you stay still and let your country be taken. So if you don’t want your children to live in Finlandstan, you need to do something about it.

    First, spread the word as laud as possible, the more people know the truth the better. Don’t forget you have the truth at your side and it’s a powerful ally.

    Second, understand that politicians are interested in one thing only –election. So let them know that is they force this monster down your throat they will need to find another job after next election. Just look at how the general mood about immigration has changed after Timo got elected. We still live in a democracy, so use it before you lose it.

    Many people here says that “Finland is my country”. In my opinion this is the most selfish argument I have ever heard. Finland is not only your country but also your children’s, an you own it to them. Remember, they, not you, will have to live with the consequences of what you do, or not do, today.

    • Enrique

      Thank you for the kudos, Tony. However, let me make a point very clear: I believe that a society comprised by many cultures is a positive and natural matter. Even though we must look at both sides of the coin, the problems of high unemployment and exclusion have a lot to do with bigotry.

      When you speak of multiculturalism I mean the social policy instigated in Canada about twenty years ago. I personally don´t believe in forced assimilation because it does not work. However, if a person wants to assimilate to a culture he must have that right as well.

      I would also contest your idea of the “cultural purity” of the Finns.

      Some claim (Tiwaz) that groups such as Tartars and Jews adapted well in Finland. True, but how? By assimilation. This was ok for the Finns but maybe a lost opportunity for future generations who had relatives in this group.

  3. hannu

    I red old stories about first finns in Australia, people did do “finnish houses” but those were annoyance to local community at first. Did they yell discrimination?
    No they kicked out people who caused problem and problem was solved and locals accepted those.
    Finnish drinking habits wouldnt fit in so it was prohibited in finnish houses.
    Was that bad assimilation?

    Thats same in everywhere, if you annoy majority youre screwed.

    To finns lot was excused because of work morals but if we tried to stretch that too far it backfired. As one finn who moved in australia in 50s told “finns are good, just dont add alcohol”.
    Was that presumption or knowledge?

    Same in sweden, lot of drunks moved in and continued to stab each other, swedes told “en finne igen” and clearly told thats not acceptable and today its not problem anymore, well it lives in jokes but they are faggots anyway 😉

    And enrigue learn difference of Tartar and Tatar, first one is russian? food and latter is ethnic group.

  4. Tony Garcia

    Enrique can I ask you a question? You may have already answered on your previous comment however I would like to just make this clear.

    Let’s imagine, hypothetically, that Finland did not have the population ageing and lack of skilled workers problems. Would still advocate that Finland should open its doors to people from very different cultural/religious background?

    • Enrique

      –Let’s imagine, hypothetically, that Finland did not have the population ageing and lack of skilled workers problems.

      You are asking a person who has moved 11 times to different countries, grew up in multicultural (demographically speaking) Los Angeles, boarded a plane when he was nine months to London from Buenos Aires. I think culturally diverse societies are NORMAL. There never existed a society that was fully out of touch with the world and other cultures.

      Would you want to live in such a world? Maybe in the Amazon Jungle there are tribes that live that way.

      I am a bit surprised at your answer because you grew up in Brazil and married a Finn (not a person from your culture), have children and live in a country that both of you never grew up.

  5. Tony Garcia

    Many people may be reading all this and wondering “what a hell. HS, Thors and others say that we don’t need to worry about it, multiculturalism will do good to Finland. At the same time this Tony keep saying the opposite. Who should I believe in? After all we are talking my children lives”.

    Well let me tell you, don’t believe in me. I’ll tell you what, you could do an experiment that could change your way of seeing things forever. It may sound a bit weird but it’ll work.

    Get few days from work. Get your wife or husband, whatever the case, but DO NOT take your children. And go to have a look for yourself. I’ll give a few suggestions. Sheffield (south part) in South Yorkshire, Walthamstow north east of London, Maryland East London, Alum Rock in Birmingham, Bury Park in Luton.

    Go to one of this places and spend just 3 days there, no more. Walk around in the streets, go shopping, go to parks, go to a school when kids are living, you know, just ordinary life, after that make your own conclusions.

    If that is the kind of place you want, just come to this very same blog and let everyone knows that I’m a fraud, or a bigot.

    If not, let your family, friends, workmates, neighbours and most importantly your elected politician knows that.

    • Enrique

      –Thors and others say that we don’t need to worry about it, multiculturalism will do good to Finland.

      Tony, even though we have debated about this issue, I am still not clear why multiculturalism (demographic, right?) is a threat to Finland or to any country. If you think that way, then how were you able to study in the United States? When you grew up in Brazil did you feel out of place because there were people from different ethnicities? I don’t understand.

      You mentioned in a previous post that the more different one is the better. Can you state such a thing with unemployment rates where they are and the hostility some groups face even when they do simple tasks like going to the market?

      The matter is very simple: you take away the rights of another group and you end up shooting your society in the leg. Dictatorships work that way not democratic western societies such as ours.

      Nobody has accused you of anything.

  6. Mateus

    ‘And how much natives are in argentina?’

    ‘We are the natives, and we prefer not to go extinct.’

    Guys, seriously, this blog is getting quite boring because your comments are extremely predictable…

    But anyway, let me just make one thing clear: it is widely known that the vast majority of the indigenous population in South America died due to the viruses and sicknesses brought by the Europeans.

    The ones who survived the viruses were killed by them anyway, and this is also widely known. However, what you guys seem to be unable to understand is that this has no link at all with multiculturalism, but with IMPERIALISM. If the massive killing of natives were a result of multiculturalism, then Latin America would not exist… It was gradually colonised by different countries at different periods of history… So everytime new immigrants arrived there would be conflict with the ones that were already settled here and they would fight until the extinction of one of them… That is obviously not the case.

    Note that I am not taking sides in the current discussion… I am simply trying to prevent you from using the same old and fallacious arguments that the Amerindians were extinct because of multiculturalism.

    • Enrique

      Hi Mateus, nice to hear from you! You are absolutely right about the comments and that I too am falling asleep with some of these comments. I hope, however, that people who visit this blog can get varying views of the topic.

      As you know, I have tried to explain what multiculturalism is (social policy and demographic makeup) but this ends up in deaf ears. Multiply this fact a million times and you will understand what has hounded Europe.

  7. Tony Garcia

    Enrique, talking about predictability there you are, again, bringing race to the discussion.

    This is the last time I’ll say that, alright?

    If you think a black American is the same than a black Somali, so you are the one who believes that race have influence on your outcome.

    For me the first is welcome in Finland, the second though…

    Nop, I don’t need to go to Amazon, Finland AS IT IS will do just fine, that’s why I fight for it.

    “you grew up in Brazil and married a Finn (not a person from your culture), have children and live in a country that both of you never grew up.”

    Sorry but I think this part of your comment is unfair. What you are describing here is immigration not multiculturalism. Yes I moved to Finland, however I integrated seamless to that society, no demands, no complains, no special space or recognition required. I even went to the bloody sauna with a bunch of drunks naked blokes, just to show for them that I accept that I was in Finland not elsewhere. Our move to Ireland wasn’t any different.

    It really annoys me when you use race or immigration in your arguments against my comments. I’m a good example on how immigration and multiculturalism are totally different things.

  8. Tony Garcia

    You know that would be interesting, just for the argument sake? Have a look at the Tatars and Jews in Finland, and compare them with, let’s say, Somalis. See what life each group have, than we can really see how much “opportunities” Tatars and Jews have “lost”, as claimed here.

    Furthermore, ask them how much they regret they ancestors decision to integrate. We may be surprised.

    You know why? I remember the post about the Mexican sign in the train station in Finland. Enrique and Demon were very offended by it, however a Mexican living in Finland gave his opinion about that and he didn’t seems to care about it at all.

    The problem with multiculturalists is that they have the ability to get offended on others behalf.

  9. Tony Garcia

    “You are asking a person who has moved 11 times to different countries, grew up in multicultural (demographically speaking) Los Angeles, boarded a plane when he was nine months to London from Buenos Aires.”

    But yet, 30 years ago, you decided to permanently settle in one of the most homogenous country in the western world.

    It makes one wonder…

    • Enrique

      Yes, Tony, it makes me wonder as well :). However, I moved here because I love the sub-arctic landscapes not because there were no foreigners. Ever since I have moved here, Finland has got more international. This is a welcome development.

  10. Tiwaz

    -“Thank you for the kudos, Tony. However, let me make a point very clear: I believe that a society comprised by many cultures is a positive and natural matter.”

    And I believe that the Moon is made of cheese. Edam to be precise.

    What these claims have in common? Both are proven false by reality. Moon is big piece of rock, and multiculturalist societies are ones with biggest problems due to internal conflicts.

    -“Even though we must look at both sides of the coin, the problems of high unemployment and exclusion have a lot to do with bigotry.”

    Yes, how do those employers DARE to demand that employee actually can speak and act properly with clients and colleagues.

    Finns should bow to great foreigners for foreigners are good and holy and should not be held up to same standards as Finns!

    -“When you speak of multiculturalism I mean the social policy instigated in Canada about twenty years ago.”

    And where has this policy taken Canada? Amount of cultural conflict related crime is ever increasing, people are unhappy there. Yay!

    -“I personally don´t believe in forced assimilation because it does not work. However, if a person wants to assimilate to a culture he must have that right as well.”

    Assimilation is only route which works. You take your culture, cut off everything that offends local culture and you have perfect solution where you can keep your own cultural specialities without causing conflict with local culture.

    -”
    I would also contest your idea of the “cultural purity” of the Finns.”

    Finns are culturally extremely homogenous group. We have small culturally distinct subgroups, but catch is that their culture has removed all issues which would be offensive to Finnish culture.

    -“Some claim (Tiwaz) that groups such as Tartars and Jews adapted well in Finland. True, but how? By assimilation. This was ok for the Finns but maybe a lost opportunity for future generations who had relatives in this group.”

    Maybe? What have they exactly lost? Do they cry over their “loss” today?

    They are just as happy with their lives as average Finn in general. They have adjusted their culture to fit into Finnish framework, they retain their own cultural identity while merging it into Finnish identity. They have become subgroup of Finnish society by taking limitations and principles of Finnish culture and shaping their own culture to fit that.

    -“However, I moved here because I love the sub-arctic landscapes not because there were no foreigners.”

    I would recommend multicultural Sweden for you then. It would be much more international place and you would find lots of friends in Malmö who would happily accept you into their multicultural society.

  11. Mateus

    “And where has this policy taken Canada?”

    And where has homogeneity taken Finland?

    To a declining and noncompetitive economy, perhaps?
    To a racist and xenophobic society?
    To backwardness towards international demographic changes?

    Note, again, that I am not taking sides. This is only for you to see that a fallacious argument has always the two sides of the coin.

    • Enrique

      –“And where has homogeneity taken Finland?”

      Good question, Mateus! My answer: It has become a liability for the country because it needs labor immigrants in the future but has little idea (and is reluctant) to bring them here. It has made Finnish culture highly exclusive to the point that it is hazardous to the country’s health. It has maintained in tact myths about our culture. The lack of diversity in Finland has made some people passive and apathetic of their own culture. Some cannot see past their noses.

  12. Tony Garcia

    There you are again Enrique, mixing immigration, diversity and multiculturalism. The two last are not mandatory for the first to happen. Actually when the first happen without the two last it’s a brilliant success.

    • Enrique

      Tony, doesn’t immigration bring diversity in many cases? With respect to multiculturalism are you speaking of the social policy? As you know, there are only three countries in the world that are officially multicultural: Canada, Australia and England.

    • Enrique

      Hi Tony, yes it is true what you say: immigration fuels diversity and new ideas. With respect to multiculturalism as a social policy, it is a more complex issue. I sort of understand it and the matter that attracts me it is that it aims to strengthen, or recognizes, diversity socially and legally. One timely multicultural topic is how people are “integrated” into society. What about the use of public space? Who’s culture should predominate and when?

      If you ask me, a person who grew up in three cultures, studied social sciences and worked most of his life as a journalist (foreign correspondent) in a number of countries, how people should “integrate” my answer would be the following: When cultures live together they must learn tolerance and respect for each other. In this process there is a lot of give-and-take, accommodation and flexibility. It is like a marriage between a man and a woman – you adapt to being a couple.

      What is the problem, then? The issue is that there are still too many from both sides who find it very difficult to accept others (both ways). Here is where the problem resides and causes so much hardship. Add to this the weight of history, culture and ignorance and we have a lethal brew. You are an educated person who has traveled a lot and grew up in a hybrid society (Brazil), which means that you must have the ability to see the world from your OWN perspective not spoon fed by someone else or institution.

      Alberdi had a naive view of the immigrants he saw coming in the nineteenth century. He wanted educated white Europeans to come to Argentina. However, what we got were people who came from semi-feudal areas in Europe (Spain and Italy), and were illiterate in many cases. Even so, Argentina offered these people an opportunity to educate their children and live a better life economically than in their native countries.

  13. Mateus

    Tony, don’t take this to the letter. This was just to show that we can easily turn empty sentences into pompous arguments by mixing up different ’causes and effects’.

  14. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, doesn’t immigration bring diversity in many cases?”

    Absolutely, that’s why it should be handled with care. Fortunately in most cases diversity comes from countries outside EU, so Finnish government has the very right to allow in just those who will contribute to this society without try to change it. That’s why I keep calling all Finns to activism. You do it now before too late.

    “With respect to multiculturalism are you speaking of the social policy?”

    Well, I already said this many times, but let’s try it again…

    I’m speaking about allowing people to exercise practices with we have , long ago, considerate immoral and have been banished from our society.

    I have no problem with multiculturalism bringing hamburgers from US, pizza from Italy, or beef from Argentina (although Brazilian beef is better), my problem starts when it brings forced marriage, FGM, bigamy, honour killing or gender discrimination to mention a few. And please let’s not start with the usual denial/prove/explanation circle. Also let’s cut the crap of a tiny few, for me 6.500 young girls risking FGM in the UK per year is a lot. An all under the government nose just to avoid confrontation with community leaders and Imams.

    You know, beside FGM all those practices were common in Europe. Than liberals, not conservatives I do admit that, fought hard to get it abolish and illegal. Now the very same liberals are saying that we should tolerate it due “cultural sensitiveness”.

    I’ll try to make this as clear as possible. My problem with multiculturalism is that tells minorities to be what they are, at the same time tells the majority to be what they should be. And I don’t want some minorities being “the way they are” and living next door.

    For the 3 countries you said, the first, as I said before, I don’t know so I’ll take your word. The second I think it has already being shown here that multiculturalism has already started to backfire there as well. The third, I wouldn’t move my family there even if invited by the queen herself.

  15. Tiwaz

    -“Tony, don’t take this to the letter. This was just to show that we can easily turn empty sentences into pompous arguments by mixing up different ’causes and effects’.”

    Except your argument is full of shit and effectively you negate your own argument.

    Canada suffers from internal problems because of “diversity”.

    Finland does not.

    Canada and Finland go toe to toe in every other field. Both rank very high in various competitiveness and education fields. Finland even higher.

    My statement was anything but empty phrase, yours in turn is flat out lie.

    Cause for many Canadian problems is loss of social cohesion, which leads to (as proven in study from which you can read from book “Bowling alone”) lack of trust in community. Which in turn hurts society in multiple levels.

    Including ability to compete. Society where people all work together is always stronger than one where people are divided into increasingly small little cliques, something which always takes place in multicultural societies.

    This division is source of failure for multicultural society.

    In ages long gone, we can look at Rome as it started to climb to power. They were one, unified group. Gauls, by comparison, were divided along their tribal lines. Which made it possible for Julius Caesar to take advantage of the divided nature of Gauls and kick their asses repeatedly.

    Had Gauls created one, unified and cohesive society, their numbers would have overwhelmed Roman legions easily. It was their division which doomed them.

    History proves me right, what proves you right?
    Nothing.

  16. Mateus

    Yes Tiwaz, history proves you right. The only problem is that I was not trying to be proven right… Maybe you read too quickly, or maybe the way you interprete words in English is a bit misleading, but I was just trying to show how irrelevant your previous argument was… However, the last one was good, being propped up by historical facts…

    I know, for real, that Finnish economy is not declining and is one of the most competitive ones in the world since it is so highly industrialised…

    And I even have to admit that after more than a year reading this blog (and others) I have gradually changed my mind about multiculturalism… It’s really not a bed of roses, in most of the cases…

    • Enrique

      –And I even have to admit that after more than a year reading this blog (and others) I have gradually changed my mind about multiculturalism… It’s really not a bed of roses, in most of the cases…

      Mateus, certainly it is not but do we have any other social policies to integrate immigrants that works effectively? Multiculturalism has had its fair share of critics. Some claim that it does not deal effectively enough with social ills such as racism. Do you believe assimilation (melting pot) is a good method?

      What social thinkers of the nineteenth century did you read when you went to school in Brazil. One of the most prominent in Argentina was Juan Bautista Alberdi.

  17. Tony Garcia

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249797/Labour-threw-open-doors-mass-migration-secret-plot-make-multicultural-UK.html

    “Labour has always justified immigration on economic grounds and denied it was using it to foster multiculturalism.”

    There you go Finland, what more prove you need? Or you really think in there things are different? Look at those pictures, if you didn’t know, would you say that it was taken from an English city?

    I keep hearing “diversity enrich”, and I wonder…

    There are two type of clichés – true ones and not true ones. True ones you can’t laugh at, because they are true, you know like “haste makes waste”, it’s a cliché but it’s true. But “diversity enrich” I just can’t, honestly, find it how it does. And to this date, no one has even explained it to me, only branded me bigot for asking.

    I just love lines that are stated with great convictions but don’t mean anything.

    So, Finland wake up and start doing something about it. Spread the word as far and wide as possible, and turn on the heating on politicians. Everett Dirksen used to say that “politicians see the light when they fell the heat”. So, turn it on and do it big.

    You own this to your children.

  18. Tony Garcia

    You know Mateus what is the problem with multiculturalism? It’s never explained clearly. Clarity is the multiculturalism worse enemy. That’s why all the dissidence must the silenced by branding them “racist” or “bigot”. If you let people freely discuss about it most will turn their back on it.

    You are not the first, and with the bless of the Lord, won’t be the last who will see things are they are.

  19. Tony Garcia

    Easy Enrique, we just need to see the outcome. I told you already.

    Get the group who decided to be what Finland expects them to be. See where they are now and if they regret their decision.

    Then to the same to the group who decided to be whatever their Imams told them to be, and do the same.

    In your honest opinion with group you think succeeded more? With group is happier?

    The only ones who regret immigrants’ assimilation are those who want to use immigration to transform the country, sorry to say that.

  20. Mateus

    Enrique, as you probably well know education has historically been neglected in Brazil, and this is lamentable. So, like most Brazilians, I didn’t read any social thinker when I went to school. I only realised the value and importance of studies and books when I got to University. Fortunately it was not too late.

    I’m afraid I wasn’t very clear in my previous comment. I have, indeed, changed my opinion about multiculturalism. But this does not mean that I am against it, nor that I am fully in favour of it.

    I wish I could flick through the newspaper in the morning and read that different ethnical groups were living in peace together, respecting each other’s values, principles and cultures. However, this does not seem to happen.

    But I still believe that one day this will be possible.

    Brazil could be an example of a multicultural society which works. However, those who are against it will claim that Brazil is far from being a role model, because of its unequal income distribution, etc, etc, etc. But what if one day it becomes a developed nation, with excellent economic and social indicators?

  21. Tony Garcia

    Hi Mateus, let me tell you, you have been reading this blog for a while, very well, then take all the regulars here. I think it’s fair to say that from all of us Twiaz is the most radical, I’m not trying to be offensive but this is true.

    If you have been reading carefully what he says, he never said a word against immigration. He only says that he wants to preserve his country. He wants to give to his children the same Finland he’s got from his parents. Isn’t that fair?

    Of course one can always say that “but I know what he is really thinking”. A interesting aspect you will find in most multiculturalists is that they develop great psychic abilities. They always “know” what people is thinking, and more importantly, they “know” what they will do if ever elected. Even though nobody ever said so. We saw this in the previous post…

    “champions of our western way of life” is that they would, if given the opportunity, be the first to impose the very autocratic measures that they claim to be fighting against.”

    They just “know” that, don’t they? . But the fact is that Twiaz has never criticized immigration, only multiculturalism. And that’s a fact.

    Now let’s take this idea back home. You live in a very nice place, don’t you? I, however, grew up in Sao Paulo, do we need to go though the differences between our both birth places? So would you like the idea of start moving the “favelas” from Sao Paulo to your city? What feelings does this thought bring to you? What would be your reaction? Would you fell enriched by the “cultura paulista”, or you prefer keep things the way they are? Have a, look at the post, from the Mail, I put here today and you will understand it better…

  22. Mateus

    Enrique, I trully believe that a successful multicultural person is the one who has NO culture and ALL the cultures of the world at the same time. If you want to be part of the Finnish society, adopt the Finnish culture as if it were your own! Time to move to another country? Get rid of your newly acquired drinking (vodka) habits and integrate to that new society by trying to become one of them… This is the way it should be…

    I remember your words in a post last year very clearly: “No matter what country I moved to, I would take the time to learn the language and the local culture.” Spot on, mate. If every immigrant acted like you do, there would be no conflicts. But the difference is that you are one of the successful multicultural persons I am talking about. I am sure you don’t act like a Finn when you go to Argentina, and when you are in Finland you behave like a Finn. But you have the ability to shift from one culture to the other because you grew up in both environments. However, this is not that easy for most of the people.

  23. Mateus

    Tony, “post, from the Mail”? Sorry, I didn’t get you.

    But I totally understand what you mean. We have been facing a wave of immigration of people from the North to the South of Brazil, and this has caused some serious problems. The difference between Brazil and Finland is that here we have enough geographical space to house many different ethnical groups. In Suomi, however, this is not possible.

  24. Tiwaz

    To be honest, Finland has lots of empty space. It is just that people are concentrated in rather small areas, few major cities hold huge portion of population.

    What is true difference between Brazil and Finland, is that Brazil as society is very young. It was colonized by Portugese and they imported much of their culture. But at same time many other groups were imported there.

    Finland is old society. Finns as group have lived here and existed millenia. Last major change on demographic was Swedes pushing to coasts, but even that ended up being very cosmetic change and Finnish culture through majority, well essentially trampled them.

    Finnish Swedish speaker and real Swede are very different animals.

    You cannot take Brazil and then declare that this is how multiculturalism works and that it works in Finland too. We talk about societies with vast age difference.

    It is bit like building a house. Once it is finished, you can add parts to it but it has to fit existing house or it is useless.

    You cannot just declare that you will change whole structure of the house because your neighbor build one without any 90 degree angles at whim, while preserving the house.

    If you try, you end up destroying the house and building new one. It is no longer the old house.

    In essence, to build multicultural Finland in mold of Brazil, you have to destroy Finnish culture and then transplant Brazilian society to Finland.

    You cannot have your cake and eat it, and you cannot have Finnish culture and society and have it multicultural in style of Brazil or USA or whatever.

  25. Tony Garcia

    “Who’s culture should predominate and when?”

    That’s my friend is the 1 million Euros question, with most multiculturalists doesn’t want to be asked.

    “When cultures live together they must learn tolerance and respect for each other”

    Very well but what happen when members of a minority community just refuse to do it? What happen when some groups just see the host culture, with feed and house them, as everything they have always learned to be wrong? That’s another question that multiculturalists just keep avoiding.

    You know, I wonder how many people has read Marx before the Society Union and has thought, “this is the world I want to live in”. Today, after we saw what that world means we have a quite different opinion about it. Don’t we?

    Multiculturalism is not different, “many cultures living harmonically side-by-side enriching each other”. What a wonderful idea, who can deny it? However what did happen to countries with have tried it?

    And nop, its failure is not result of intolerance, quite the opposite, its failure is result of excess of tolerance.

    Rushdie’s has a interesting point about it. He talks about the next stage of multiculturalism, with I don’t see as next but the real stage, nevertheless his points are worth a listen.

    PS. It’s funny when he tries to justify multiculturalism but just can’t find how.

    • Enrique

      –Multiculturalism is not different, “many cultures living harmonically side-by-side enriching each other”. What a wonderful idea, who can deny it? However what did happen to countries with have tried it?

      Cultures living side by side… Isn’t this the history of humankind? And it has worked. Look at the Americas, even Europe, where it has been sometimes more of a problematic issue. You ask me if multicultures living in the same place have not benefited from each other. Well, all I have to look at Argentina, even the United States, to see how it works in practice. I mention these countries because I have lived in them. But I think, Tony, your observation that cultures are “pure” and then they become mixed is wrong. They have always mixed. All we have done is convince ourselves that they have not.

    • Enrique

      –And nop, its failure is not result of intolerance, quite the opposite, its failure is result of excess of tolerance.

      Tony, could you elaborate?

    • Enrique

      –“Who’s culture should predominate and when?”

      Tony, thank you for the videoclip. It is always interesting to listen to Salman Rushdie. Just for your information, the term “cultural relativism” came out in the early twenthieth century and was coinced by Franz Boas. It was an answer to those anthropologists who believed that the white man (European) was superior to the non-European cultures and thereby colonization was justifiable. This latter school of thought, historical evolutionism, believed that societies evolved in stages, with the Europeans being at the top. Certainly the concept “cultural relativism” has received a lot of criticism since one cannot sit and watch passively, say genocide, because it “is the way a culture resolves conflicts.”

      I don’t believe that our values are being weakened as Rushdie suggests. For example, I think our society understands and enforces strict laws against censorship and hostility towards journalists and writers. And remember, Rushdie´s issue with the Muslim world after he published the Satanic Verses. The reaction of the West to these death threats was correct since we cherish our right to freedom of speech. We should not also forget that because of 9/11 we continue to be at war with the Muslim world. Our “Christian” troops are in Iraq and Afghanistan. Here we are imposing our values with the help of the gun. Do you want to know why Afghanistan is becoming a problem? Because the West wants to change matters ethnocentrically and by force. I would feel the same way if a Muslim army was in Europe imposing its culture on us.

      Rushdie poses an interesting question when he looks at the way we shunned the former Soviet Union during the cold war. However, why aren´t there similar voices from the Muslim world? The reason, I believe, is because the Muslim countries are not a military threat as the Soviet Union was. The West does not want to upset the balance of things there because it gets oil. So, as you can see, there are interests and there could be an argument that the West does not care for the fate of these people because oil is more important than democracy in Saudi Arabia. This type of policy is one of the reasons why matters are at the present stage. Is the West really interested in human rights in the Muslim world?

      Isn’t it incredible, Tony, how backward we are when it comes to cultural harmony and understanding? In the game of geopolitics and globalization humans matter very little. If they matter little from afar this same attitude shows from near when they live in the same city as us.

  26. Tony Garcia

    “They have always mixed. All we have done is convince ourselves that they have not.”

    Fair enough. So Finland has always been a multicultural and diverse place, very well then. We don’t need more diversity, we have it already. So now what we should do is concentrate in the problem of skill shortage.

    We should call the government to stop immigration from Africa, Middle East and Asia, places where people have low education and would only contribute to Finland in bringing in more diversity. The government should instead create incentives to bring high qualified professionals, easily found in Western Europe, US, South Korea and Japan.

    That’s a good news Enrique, thanks.

  27. Tony Garcia

    “Tony, could you elaborate?”

    It’s what Rushdie said, to not upset the newcomers we start to tolerate practices with we have long ago declared immoral and made illegal.

    In the name of tolerance we create a multilayer society with eventually will destroy unity. What is not ok for you becomes ok for me, and that is when the problem starts.

    You say that we should tolerate each others, very well, so why don’t you tolerate people who believes that black race is inferior? Because it’s morally wrong and our society is based on moral values with allow us to function properly. But you never said a word about Muslims and believe that women are inferior. Both ideas are equally wrong and damaging, however you quickly wave a flag against the first, how about the second?

    So, we exercise tolerance with moderation among ourselves. The same should be extended to all groups with have decided to live among us.

    That’s the answer to your 1 million Euro question, with culture should predominate, if moral is in question, ours should.

  28. Jonas

    “Finland is old society. Finns as group have lived here and existed millenia. Last major change on demographic was Swedes pushing to coasts, but even that ended up being very cosmetic change and Finnish culture through majority, well essentially trampled them.
    Finnish Swedish speaker and real Swede are very different animals.”

    Perhaps partially right on that last bit, but the first part is completely inaccurate from a historical perspective. In many areas currently populated by Swedish-speaking Finns, the Swedish-speaking population pre-dates settlement by Finnish-speakers. This includes much of Nyland/Uusimaa, where ironically (in a turn of fate), during the 20th century a huge proportion of the Finnish-speaking population have chosen to moved to (e.g. foremost the capital region).

    The Swedish period actually had a much greater influence on Finland than you are giving it credit for. Our society is one that is based upon the rule of law in the Nordic/west European model because of inheritance of the Swedish period. Our laws and system of government are largely derived from that period. Our highly developed bureaucratic tradition is something we got from our time as a n integral part of the Kingdom of Sweden (for instance, the very effective registration of births, weddings, deaths from a very early point). The basis of our system of education is found from our period as part of Sweden. The University of Helsinki (or rather its predecessor organisation founded in Turku) was the third oldest university in the Swedish realm, after Uppsala and Dorpat (today’s Tartu in Estonia). We are (almost exclusively) western (and later specifically protestant Lutheran) Christians, not eastern Orthodox. We were fortunate to be able to maintain the Swedish period’s legal structures, and our Lutheran religion, almost unchanged in 1809. This showed just how ingrained they had become. They survived the period as a Russian grand duchy and emerged as the basis for the structures of our independent state in 1917.

    So, whilst I realise this does not satisfy the ultra-Finno-nationalistic worldview, which for some inexplicable need has a need to vilify and discount the importance of all things pertaining to Swedish culture (by which I mean the culture that does not stop at the borders of the modern nation state that is called Sweden), the Swedish language and also our neighbour to the west. I would not be so fast to say that it is Swedish-speakers who adopted Finnish-speakers’ habits. It seems to me to be much more complex than that.

    Now, let’s not pretend that life was all sweetness and joy during whilst we were a part of Sweden, clearly it wasn’t; but we should be thankful that we were a part of Sweden and not conquered from the east at an earlier stage. Things might have been very different had we have been part of that feudal, comparatively backward entity. We certainly would probably not be the modern, mature western European / Nordic democracy that we are today.

    • Enrique

      –Perhaps partially right on that last bit, but the first part is completely inaccurate from a historical perspective. In many areas currently populated by Swedish-speaking Finns, the Swedish-speaking population pre-dates settlement by Finnish-speakers.

      One of the wisest matters that Finland did as an independent nation was to have two official languages: Finnish and Swedish. Remember when Finland was figuring out which flag it would adopt: the celeste cross or Akseli Gallen-Kallela’s lion and red background. The adoption of our present flag put us closer to the Nordic than to the Baltic states, which have had their fair share of problems with Russia. However, if I had to chose from the Baltic States democratic model/system of government and the Nordic one, I would choose the latter one.

      Jonas, who teaches these types of wise tales about our culture? Is provincialism and myopia the culprit? Education in this century to our children and grandchildren should teach different values instead of those to maintain myths and exclusiveness.

  29. Tiwaz

    -“Cultures living side by side… Isn’t this the history of humankind?”

    History of humankind is that every tribe has it’s own hood, and neighbor coming to hang around is killed for trespassing.

    Welcome to real world Enrique.

    -“And it has worked. Look at the Americas, even Europe, where it has been sometimes more of a problematic issue.”

    It has worked by having groups with least differences merging together to have more power to kick out tribes next door for more and better land. It has never been kumbaya and holding hands.

    -“You ask me if multicultures living in the same place have not benefited from each other. Well, all I have to look at Argentina, even the United States, to see how it works in practice.”

    Yeah, miserably. Remember Los Angeles riots in nineties? Blacks and Koreans were so happy happy joy joy multicultural that when riots started, black population of their shared multicultural “hood” kicked in and trashed specially Korean owned stores.

    Yes, such grand display of solidarity and unity of multiculturalism offers.

    -“I mention these countries because I have lived in them. But I think, Tony, your observation that cultures are “pure” and then they become mixed is wrong. They have always mixed. All we have done is convince ourselves that they have not.”

    They have not mixed in any way which would matter. One culture has always managed to come on top and essentially crush the other one. Weaker culture may leave some traces of it into new one, but it is essentially subjected to rules and principles of dominant culture.

    Monocultural society is not society where only one culture exists, but it is society where only one culture MATTERS.

    Because of this, despite existence of Ainu, Ryukyu, Sami, Tatar, Jews and Swedish speakers… Finland and Japan are monocultural. Those minority subcultures have had to adjust to limitations set to it by dominant culture.

    Their representatives have complete ability to act in a way which is completely in line with dominant culture, essentially making them indistinguishable from dominant cultural group if we ignore possible accent or difference in physical appearance.

  30. Tiwaz

    Jonas, I presume you have some evidence to support your claim?

    Considering that archeological digs have located in Finland items which date to somewhere around end of Ice age and which are considered to be made by direct forefathers of Finns. We are speaking of Comb ceramic culture, which was ABSENT from Sweden completely, but existed dominantly in Finland and eastward from here.

    This alone proves that you are talking loads of crap.

    As for your load of crap about how Swedes would be foundation of Finnish society.

    Swedes did bring the infrastructure into Finland. Essentially, principles of bureaucracy, roadmaking and so forth.

    CULTURALLY their importance was lesser, as the high of the land, Swedes as it happens to be or Finns who went Swedish, preferred not to interact with those down on grassroot level.

    This meant that there was actually very little any notable cultural interchange. Swedes ruled as they pleased, and they wanted their Finnish servants to act Swedish. Huge majority of population kept their native culture.

    Because of THIS, Finland is still clearly distinct and unique culture instead of continuation of Swedish culture.

    Same way, because of this our history is filled with people who made some great advances and had Swedish family name. Quite a few of these were actually Finns who had to “Swedify” themselves to be able to study and work on higher echelons. So yes, there was some “Swedification” in those ages, but ultimately it was drop in an ocean and did not have any major difference to Finnish culture.

    Mikael Agricola, Father of written Finnish. Born as Mikael Olavinpoika. Sound very Swedish to you?

    We should indeed thank Swedes that they were arrogant or considerate enough to leave us our culture practically intact.

    But from what I have understood, Jonas, is that you are Swedish speaking Finn. And based on your posts, I would say you are one of those who have deep ingrained “bättre folk”-thinking.

    Sorry, historical proof shows that Sweden was neither mother or father of Finnish culture and society. At best some adoptive uncle who left some marks but mostly left us to fend for ourselves.

    Swedes have of course contributed to our culture, but so have Russians. But neither have contributed enough for us to say that Finnish culture would be shaped by them, as opposed to being millenia old society which has lived through some rough times.

    So my statement was fully true. Finns are ancient society and culture, and we have as long as there is any means to discern it, been the dominant population in terms of numbers in Finland.

  31. Tiwaz

    Regarding the cultural issues and history.

    I mentioned Finland is Comb ceramic area.
    Sweden, of which Jonas speaks fondly, was actually area of Pitted-Ware culture. These are, as scientists have determined, two completely different animals.

    Pitted-Ware cultural remnants HAVE been found from Finland, but only in area of Ahvenanmaa, or Åland.

    Furthermore, there is debate on what group Pitted-Ware culture belonged linguistically. It has even been suggested that it may have been Finno-Ugric in relation, which would mean Swedes, who speak language of Indo-European origin, would have actually assimilated this group. Or not, at this point impossible to say.

    But it is clear proof that whatever population resided in Sweden, it was NOT in Finland when ancestors of Finns arrived here.

  32. Tiwaz

    -“One of the wisest matters that Finland did as an independent nation was to have two official languages: Finnish and Swedish.”

    One of which is of no use to use anymore and has population which is steadily losing ground.

    I thought you were against getting stuck in past things?
    Oh yes, but that only applies to everything which is Finnish!

    -“Jonas, who teaches these types of wise tales about our culture? Is provincialism and myopia the culprit? Education in this century to our children and grandchildren should teach different values instead of those to maintain myths and exclusiveness.”

    OUR culture?
    Since when have you been Finn with Finnish culture?

    In case you have not figured out, nobody teaches culture to anyone. We grow into it after we are born and live with our parents, learning by imitating them.

    As for different values. I’ll start thinking of accepting different values when you and every other immigrant learn to accept and live by Finnish values in Finland first.

    • Enrique

      –In case you have not figured out, nobody teaches culture to anyone. We grow into it after we are born and live with our parents, learning by imitating them.

      If culture is anything learned, think how much we learn and are indoctrinated at school? Or what do they teach at school. Certainly kids learn culture from their parents as well.

      –As for different values. I’ll start thinking of accepting different values when you and every other immigrant learn to accept and live by Finnish values in Finland first.

      One form of bigotry, exlusion and prejudice is marking people outside the group. Because they aren’t members of society we can insult them, ask them to be passive and suck up every myth you throw at them. Wrong, Tiwaz. The first and foremost matter that immigrants, as well as their children must learn and defend, is their right to this society. You, however, want to deny this civil right to them.

  33. Tiwaz

    -“If culture is anything learned, think how much we learn and are indoctrinated at school? Or what do they teach at school. Certainly kids learn culture from their parents as well.”

    Where have you seen in school curriculum “Culture”?

    We have history, we have biology, we have mathematics. We do not have culture.

    It is what we soak up as we grow from our surroundings. You clearly have no grasp of what culture is if you think school teaches it.

    -“One form of bigotry, exlusion and prejudice is marking people outside the group.”

    One form of racism, arrogance and colonialism is for outsider to come to home of another human and demand that person who is at home must appease the arriving one by forfeiting his own habits.

    -“Because they aren’t members of society we can insult them, ask them to be passive and suck up every myth you throw at them. Wrong, Tiwaz.”

    Who speaks of insulting? They are outsiders yes. They are not like us. It does not mean they would be treated worse, but they have to understand that in our home, they play by our rules. One country, one set of rules found from framework of one culture.

    It is solution which has worked for centuries.

    -“The first and foremost matter that immigrants, as well as their children must learn and defend, is their right to this society. You, however, want to deny this civil right to them.”

    I tell them that they came to my native society, over here they have to learn how to live in THIS society, not expect me to appease them.

    Don’t you see how racist your attitude is towards me and my countrymen?

    You speak how immigrants have right to this, immigrants have right to that. Immigrants have right to work without having necessary skills to do it!

    Like that one idiot in your blog entry “Where will Finland find foreign workers”. Fool says that he can’t even get cleaning up job because he would have to go to school to get HYGIENE PASS! If it is needed for job, it is needed for job. But no, because he is foreigner he should have preferential treatment.

    Since fulfilling requirements to do a job should no longer be required, I want to be a doctor. I want to be a SURGEON… Want to be first patient Enrique? I know I should have this paper from medical school, but I don’t want to go to medical school and since you supported that stupidity on other thread, you must support my demand to be hired as surgeon without having qualifications.

    WHERE ARE RIGHTS OF FINNS TO BE FINNS IN FINLAND?

    I am Finn. I will judge you based on MY culture in MY country. Either suck it up or fuck off.
    If you want a job, learn how to get it. Speak Finnish, act properly, have proper education papers to present.

    • Enrique

      –I am Finn. I will judge you based on MY culture in MY country. Either suck it up or fuck off.

      Tiwaz, you have to learn to control yourself and the language you use is a disgrace to every Finn. And on top of this doing it anonymously! Isn’t that a good example of cowardice or, a bad case of bravado? It’s pretty much like all these other groups who go around bashing immigrants in society in order to get more votes.

      Have you ever thought what Finns and people abroad think about Finns when you speak in such a manner? So, go ahead, and make a fool of those you claim to represent by using such lowly language. Didn’t you parents ever teach you common sense and how to speak to other people? Now I am telling you never learned.

  34. Tiwaz

    Why is it so hard for you to admit, Enrique, that immigrants are just making things difficult for themselves?

    Like the pet issue of getting a job…

    Getting job is like selling yourself. You have to make the client, potential employer, to want to buy you. Or more precisely your work output.

    Would you buy, for example, computer program which has shitty language files so that you have to most of the time guess what it is trying to tell you about?

    Would you buy, for example, a computer program which works in counterintuitive way to you? In essence, making use of it extremely troublesome and annoying?

    Would you buy a car which comes with list of qualities but you have no idea what they mean?
    Or would you buy car which has no papers at all? You do not know anything about it, not even if it moves!

    First is language. Immigrant must accept that language is not optional, it is a must. You HAVE to be fluent for employer to buy you.

    Second is behavior. If you behave in way which does not meet with expectations of interviewer, they will not want to buy you because nobody wants to hire person who is pain in the ass in work community.

    Last are your qualifications or lack of them. If they are from Hicksville university Buttrub Alabama, they are worth nothing. That is why every damn paper has to go through Finnish educational system who give you Finnish equivalent.

    And if you lack those papers… This is skill and education based society. No skills or no proof of them makes you useless.

    That is what you and every other immigrant should beat into your heads.

    You have equal opportunity, you just do not have equal skills to take advantage of it.

    Finn who does not speak Finnish, acts like an ass and has no education has equal chance of getting a job as immigrant without any of them.

  35. punster

    “Tiwaz, you have to learn to control yourself and the language you use is a disgrace to every Finn.”

    …and that sums up multiculturalism quite nicely. You know, treating people only as representatives of their ethnicities instead of as individuals.

    Sure, people on the other side of the debate do this too but it is more fun when multiculturalists do it.

    “Have you ever thought what Finns and people abroad think about Finns when you speak in such a manner?”

    Personally, I don’t give a toss because I have not chosen Tiwaz or anybody else to be my spokesman on the Internet.

    • Enrique

      Hi punster, Tiwaz claims that he speaks for the “silent majority” of Finns. Please explain what a “multiculturalist” is. Are you speaking of the social policy (Finland is not a multicultural country officially) or demographically? And, hey, I strongly believe that our example is paramount. We cannot change the world but with our humble example we can impact those around us.

  36. Mateus

    Henrique, I was organising my archives and I came across an Argentinean newspaper, La Gaceta Mundialista, which I brought from my trip to San Miguel de Tucumán in 2006.

    Look at what I found:

    “‘Pensé que iba a ser una goleada, pero está bien el resultado’, afirma todavía nervioso Mateus Rigo Noriller.”

    You see, I am part of the Argentinean journalistic history too!

    • Enrique

      –“‘Pensé que iba a ser una goleada, pero está bien el resultado’, afirma todavía nervioso Mateus Rigo Noriller.”

      And I am very happy that you are a part of it as well! Was that the game that Argentina beat Brazil to qualify for the Olympics? Whatever, but I am happy about your exploits :).

  37. hannu

    “One form of bigotry, exlusion and prejudice is marking people outside the group. Because they aren’t members of society we can insult them, ask them to be passive and suck up every myth you throw at them.”

    Like these groups what get lot of shit.

    Single parents.
    Young male drivers.
    Obese people.
    People who dont do sports.
    Smokers.
    Drinkers.
    etc…

    We should stop to telling any groups anything and then start singing kumbayaa together and every wrong just vanish.

    Future newspaper by Enrigue.
    “Someones do something what shouldn be done, police is worried about situation”
    “Police warns that some groups do something and people should be careful about something”
    “Ministry of health is worried about something. Some people should do more something”
    “Study shows that excessive something does something”
    “STT tells that in some county happens lot of something”

    Would that be good? No “bigotry, exlusion and prejudice”. No hard feelings for anyone.

    • Enrique

      –Like these groups what get lot of shit.

      True, Hannu, but throwing feces on one group won’t correct the injustices faced by other minorities such as single parents etc.

  38. Tiwaz

    -“Tiwaz, you have to learn to control yourself and the language you use is a disgrace to every Finn.”

    And when do we see you in for example Uranus.fi telling immigrants whining there to shut up and learn to behave?

    When do we see you in this blog telling immigrants to use their brain for a moment and figure out that they are no longer in Kansas and that they have to learn to live according to local customs?

    -“And on top of this doing it anonymously! Isn’t that a good example of cowardice or, a bad case of bravado?”

    Or, as I have stated, something of a preference. I could give you fake name which appears “real”, I prefer not to. Nor do I ever give my personal information out into open in the Internet. Go read articles written by specialists. They specifically tell NEVER to give private information out in open media like this.

    -“It’s pretty much like all these other groups who go around bashing immigrants in society in order to get more votes.”

    As opposed to multiculturalist bunch who scream racist every time someone points out how multicultural society is failure and should go same way nazism and communism went. Into the grave and history books.

    And I notice you did not respond to my point. I am Finn, I live in Finland. I will now and forever judge you and everyone I see in Finland according to Finnish cultural norms. Fall short of them and I treat you accordingly.

    It is task for you and other foreigners like you to learn what those norms are and to learn to respect them. If you do not, do not presume to be treated better than your behavior warrants.

    As for what other Finns think. I say what they do not dare to say flat out into face of you foreigners for fear of being labelled racist.

    I know whole lot of Finns. And unlike you, because of me being “inside” I also know what they think when they do not have to put up the polite face. Finns are sick and tired of foreigners coming here and telling us how we should live our lives.

  39. Joel

    “Assimilation is only route which works. You take your culture, cut off everything that offends local culture and you have perfect solution where you can keep your own cultural specialities without causing conflict with local culture.”

    Well said Tiwaz. Agree 150%

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